Did Monzon Benefit From Crooked Judges As Left Hook States ?

[Ivich]

You mean like with Sven Ottke? I heard he had a personal ref after a while, is that true?

Ottke was in some blatantly biased fights the Reid one was an example.I've been unable to find any involving Monzon. Randy Neuman refereed Ottke the most, 5 times,I've never had a problem with him.

[QueensburyRules]

Carlos Monzon wasn't that good, competition in Argentina was/is bad.

- - Stick to eating the lead shavings of U stoooopid converting lead into gold schemes.

[Dr. Z]

Oh, in case I wasn't clear. Yea, I suspect the ref was titled Monzon's way.

One thing to note, back then the ref not only controlled the action, he also scored the fight. A bit of a conflict of interest if you ask me.

[Willie Pep 229]

One thing to note, back then the ref not only controlled the action, he also scored the fight. A bit of a conflict of interest if you ask me.

I don't see it as a conflict per se, not sure.

But I do see it as an unnecessary burden that can distract the referee from what is his important task, refereeing the fight. He should be watching that the rules are obeyed and watching the health of the fighters, not trying to evaluate effective punching and defense.

Funny but in the early years the ref was sometimes the only judge of the fight and would, with the final bell, immediately raise one of the fighters hand without even a moment of contemplation. I am certain that was the manner in which Dempsey-Gibbons ended, and I think Johnson-Burns as well.

Not that either fight was wrong.

[Ivich]

I don't see it as a conflict per se, not sure.

But I do see it as an unnecessary burden that can distract the referee from what is his important task, refereeing the fight. He should be watching that the rules are obeyed and watching the health of the fighters, not trying to evaluate effective punching and defense.

Funny but in the early years the ref was sometimes the only judge of the fight and would, with the final bell, immediately raise one of the fighters hand without even a moment of contemplation. I am certain that was the manner in which Dempsey-Gibbons ended, and I think Johnson-Burns as well.

Not that either fight was wrong.

I see no glaring discrepancies in the scoring that is available to view.Jack Dougherty the referee for the Gibbons fight was thought to be partial to Dempsey and Jack Kearns had stipulated he wanted him as the third man.Hugh McIntosh the referee and promoter of the Burns fight was a close friend of Burns and did not like Johnson but he knew there was no way Burns had made any sort of a showing in their fight.

[Willie Pep 229]

I see no glaring discrepancies in the scoring that is available to view.

Sorry I don't understand your post.

[Ivich]

Sorry I don't understand your post.

I dont see anything wrong with the scoring of the referees and judges in the Monzon fights we can see on Box Rec.

[Willie Pep 229]

I dont see anything wrong with the scoring of the referees and judges in the Monzon fights we can see on Box Rec.

Yea me neither - I was just speaking in the abstract about double burdering the referee by giving him two distinctive, but important tasks.

Re my earlier post which I stated that there 'probably was some bias' was more a nod to tradition than anything particular to Monzon's fights.

[mrbig1]

Carlos Monzon wasn't that good, competition in Argentina was/is bad.

You would be right if he only had 1 or 2 defends of his title. He had 14 against the world's best. When he retired, he had cleaned out a very tough MW division.

[billeau2]

Like so many things in life, this simple question about whether a ref was "fair" would seem capable of a binary answer as in "Yes/No." But when considering the vantage point of the ref, the context of the ref's actions, etc... I think two things should be apparent:

1. A ref scoring fights is a GREAT IDEA. The ref really sees punches and if they land... The ref can see subtlety, etc. The hand is quicker than the eye, how can judges even see punches land? ever think about that?

2. The Judges and the ref are fallible. One should always watch the fights and judge oneself... always!

I have watched this fight and do think the ref was curtailing briscoe a bit... I don't think it was enough to influence the fight which was competative.