A key point that proves oldschool fighters were tougher and better chinned

[them_apples]

This thread is a good subject because it explores one of boxing's oldest urban legends.

The mistake Apple made is that he included chin. If he had just said "I believe old school fighters were a bit tougher as a result of the harder times they lived in," he would have gotten very little argument from anyone. That is a notion we all probably partially subscribe to.

As Bundana already observed, 100-150 years is just not long enough for human chins to evolve, in this case devolve. An earthworm might produce a new protein in that amount of time, but another cause would have to be found for human chins being stronger then than now. That is why I came up with milk. But further reading has educated me to the fact that over-drinking milk can actually cause bones to become more brittle rather than strengthening them, especially among the aged.

The thing is, out side of the thread title, this wasn’t my point. This was never my argument. About chins evolving and being tougher from being hit. My point was the system that ran boxing “attracted all the hard chinned men” since boxing was “fighting” back then - there was no notion of running around and jabbing to a victory. Everyone even the boxer was expected to hurt his oponent. You needed to be tough to even make it in boxing. Most kids woulda caught a concussion in the gym and called in back then. Gyms were hard as nails back then - much different than today. The coaches were ruthless and boxing wasnt game.

[QueensburyRules]

The chin can’t get much better from taking blows, you can toughen up initially but yeah it doesn’t just perpetually get tougher. However, sparring constantly get’s you much better tuned at riding the shots, slipping and rolling and being generally aware in the ring because you are comfortable and thinking.

the part about oldschool fighters having better chins though, you keep bypassing my point. They had better chins in the same way that the nba now has more 7 footers. The sport attracted hard chinned men because you needed one to survive in boxing back then. You fought frequently and short notice, sometimes against much better opposition. You were expected to fight and tkos weren’t handed out like candies.

boxing gyms today don’t attract these people or filter them out. 300 ammy fights is gonna make a permanent ammy fighter for a career. Winning by landing more shots not by hurting. Head gear, bigger foam gloves.

this was my only point that directly answers the “old fighters having better chins”. Now in addition to how the game was, yeah they were better tuned as well.

- - U a midge reaching for the stratosphere whilst in midge zone...still priceless...

[Bundana]

The chin can't get much better from taking blows, you can toughen up initially but yeah it doesn't just perpetually get tougher. However, sparring constantly get's you much better tuned at riding the shots, slipping and rolling and being generally aware in the ring because you are comfortable and thinking.

the part about oldschool fighters having better chins though, you keep bypassing my point. They had better chins in the same way that the nba now has more 7 footers. The sport attracted hard chinned men because you needed one to survive in boxing back then. You fought frequently and short notice, sometimes against much better opposition. You were expected to fight and tkos weren't handed out like candies.

boxing gyms today don't attract these people or filter them out. 300 ammy fights is gonna make a permanent ammy fighter for a career. Winning by landing more shots not by hurting. Head gear, bigger foam gloves.

this was my only point that directly answers the "old fighters having better chins". Now in addition to how the game was, yeah they were better tuned as well.

on the topic of not being able to display anymore heart than Marquez or Vasquez, well that is totally up for debate as well because it is dependant on competition as well. By no means am I questioning their hearts as fighters, but if we are comparing the greatest hearts of 2015 to 1940, well once again, the old timers win.

further proving my point though, and yours as well sort of is the fact that Marquez did spar a LOT and it makes sense that even being slow as he moved up, flat footed and under sized his savvy got him a knockout over Pacquiao. So if anything Marquez is using an oldschool regimen to his advantage.

How am I bypassing your point? You keep saying, that the oldtimers had to have a strong chin - otherwise they wouldn't be able to make it to the top. And I keep asking you, if the same doesn't hold true today? Which you refuse to answer.

Also, how do you imagine boxing "attracted hard chinned men"? Did guys back then think "I have a strong chin, so maybe I should give boxing a try"? Of course not! A guy wouldn't know beforehand, if he had a strong chin - that would only be found out, after he had given the sport a try. Isn't it more likely, that all kinds of young men, with varying chins, took up boxing - and that those who were found wanting in the chin department were gradually weeded out? You know, just like today!

So a long-time amateur who turns pro at a late age after hundreds of amateur bouts - he will be so used to winning on points and not hurting his opponent, that this will forever be a part of his makeup, even in the pro ranks? Really?? Arthur Beterbiev had a very long amateur career, which saw him take two golds at European championships, a gold and a silver at World championships, as well as participating in two Olympics - before turning pro at the ripe old age of 28. Does it seem to you, that he has been going for points wins, rather than hurting his opponents, since turning pro?

And if we compare the greatest hearts of 2015 to 1940, "the old timers win"!! Yeah, in your dreams maybe... but only there, as no one can of course determine that!

[The Old LefHook]

The thing is, out side of the thread title, this wasn’t my point. This was never my argument. About chins evolving and being tougher from being hit. My point was the system that ran boxing “attracted all the hard chinned men” since boxing was “fighting” back then - there was no notion of running around and jabbing to a victory. Everyone even the boxer was expected to hurt his oponent. You needed to be tough to even make it in boxing. Most kids woulda caught a concussion in the gym and called in back then. Gyms were hard as nails back then - much different than today. The coaches were ruthless and boxing wasnt game.

there was no notion of running around and jabbing to a victory

Some old time boxers who jabbed and cuted their way to victory:

Willie Pep
Slapsie Maxie
Tommy Loughran
Jim Corbett
Braddock
Joey Giardello (33 KOs, 133 fights)
Nicolino Locche (Or is 50 years not long enough?)
Jimmy Young
Joey Giambra? (31 KOs, 77 fights)
Joey Archer

And a lot more. These guys could not punch their way out of cobweb, so had top box.

It's automatic that all eras had pure boxers without much punch.

[Willie Pep 229]

there was no notion of running around and jabbing to a victory

Some old time boxers who jabbed and cuted their way to victory:

Willie Pep
Slapsie Maxie
Tommy Loughran
Jim Corbett
Braddock
Joey Giardello (33 KOs, 133 fights)
Nicolino Locche (Or is 50 years not long enough?)
Jimmy Young
Joey Giambra? (31 KOs, 77 fights)
Joey Archer

And a lot more. These guys could not punch their way out of cobweb, so had top box.

It's automatic that all eras had pure boxers without much punch.

Don't disagree - but that in the Jeffries interview we all just read - Jeffries believed that Corbett hit hard. Maybe just wanted to praise a friend.

[The Old LefHook]

Don't disagree - but that in the Jeffries interview we all just read - Jeffries believed that Corbett hit hard. Maybe just wanted to praise a friend.

Right. I don't disagree with John L. But the thing is Corbett did not normally use his power, because he was always moving. He only had 12 KOs out of 35 tussles. Corbett fought with his legs.

He did a lot of jabbing for an old timer, and he was the cutest man of his era.

[Willie Pep 229]

Right. I don't disagree with John L. But the thing is Corbett did not normally use his power, because he was always moving. He only had 12 KOs out of 35 tussles. Corbett fought with his legs.

He did a lot of jabbing for an old timer, and he was the cutest man of his era.

Had quite the ego too - I read once that he claimed to have innovated the 'left hook' claiming he went to it after hurting his left hand in the Choyniski fight. Not sure how that works but I guess throwing a left hook is easier on the hand

Some also give him credit for being the first to use the jab effectively but that seems a stretch.

[The Old LefHook]

Had quite the ego too - I read once that he claimed to have innovated the 'left hook' claiming he went to it after hurting his left hand in the Choyniski fight. Not sure how that works but I guess throwing a left hook is easier on the hand

Some also give him credit for being the first to use the jab effectively but that seems a stretch.

And what compels a man to flaunt his ass cheeks so obviously? I have never seen another pair of boxing trunks like Corbett wore. The man must have loved his own ass.

[Bundana]

And what compels a man to flaunt his ass cheeks so obviously? I have never seen another pair of boxing trunks like Corbett wore. The man must have loved his own ass.

Take a look at the last Ketchel vs Papke fight... with the latter wearing not much more than the tiniest thong, really!

Stanley Ketchel vs Billy Papke IV 7-5-09 | Extended Collector's Cut Part 2 - YouTube

[Willie Pep 229]

Terry McGovern too