Comparing Vintage boxers to contemporary boxing pt.2

[them_apples]

Before we start to make comparisons of eras going much father back, let's be sure to make note of how the sport has changed since then. Comparing a sprinter on a dirt track vs a composite track is not the same thing, so like wise with boxing.

1) Smaller gloves, by the 30's it's already switching to 8 oz. the gloves are horse hair padded, so similar to a modern reyes feel. You could roll the gloves up before a fight and push the padding back so the knuckles are tight in the glove. later on in the fight sometimes it was almost pure knuckles. Fighters often had swollen hands, and also conditioned their hands to take a beating with brine, small bag gloves and hitting buckets of sand and gravel. The old fighter often had jagged overgrown knuckles. This means in my experience, punch effectiveness will matter more, since one shot has a better chance of ending the fight or turning it in your favor. This would change the style. smaller gloves also accounts for more opportunities that accuracy can be an advantage, hitting in vital areas.

2) Gloves are open with no thumb attachment. You can thumb an opponent easily - look at zivic vs Armstrong, literally shut both his eyes with thumbs. brutal. Can also drag the laces across the face. You can grab arms, block the mouth and nose in clinches so they can't breath, push shoulders and employ all sorts of holding and hitting / defensive techniques that would get called today. If the opponents pulls the head down make it look like an accidental foul and nail him in the thigh as hard as you can in the opening bell. Boxers aren't used to that.

3) butting and grappling is fair game. You cant use your head as a striking weapon, but you CAN use your head. Pin your opponents shoulders, block their vision with your head, move their shoulders or even position your head behind theirs for defensive abilities. The head was apart of fighting. Armstrong employed this as well as Dempsey. If you aren't used to this, this can completely throw your game plan off. I couldn't imagine the look on some boxers faces when they had to deal with some real surgical violent foul play. It was a fight after all. If you notice Duran vs Moore, he nails Moore with a brutal thigh punch and a nasty thumb early on. sets a tone before Moore has the experience to figure out whats going on. Duran shut his eye from the get go.

4) fights were 15 rounds. Thats 3 more rounds. Picture every bout in the 12 round era and add 3 more and ask yourself the outcome. Does Leonard beat Hearns? in a 12 rounder (fight 1).

5) draw rounds were a thing, you didn't win a round because you landed 1 more jab before the bell. another reason we saw so many rubber matches.

6) Records were deeper and had more losses because of this. Because the division was deeper. Marketing played much less of a role compared to being a good fighter and to a degree being exciting or racially profiled. Fighters fought for a living and unless they won a title made hardly any money. Sometimes you had to lose 3 times to win, you gained experience that way. its was strictly about performance. You simply won't lose if you always face opponents you can beat, and styles play a real role this.------->>>> Even contenders often got in with high ranked fighters, as tune ups but also to get experience.

7) Styles make fights. Some styles beat other styles.


feel free to add more, I just can't see how people compare johnson to Ali for example, when they fought under a different rule system. If Johnson has to play by 60's rules he won't beat Ali, i'll say that much. If it's Johnsons era, he has a good chance because he can grab Ali's arms and punch his biceps with 6 oz gloves.

[Ivich]

Before we start to make comparisons of eras going much father back, let's be sure to make note of how the sport has changed since then. Comparing a sprinter on a dirt track vs a composite track is not the same thing, so like wise with boxing.

1) Smaller gloves, by the 30's it's already switching to 8 oz. the gloves are horse hair padded, so similar to a modern reyes feel. You could roll the gloves up before a fight and push the padding back so the knuckles are tight in the glove. later on in the fight sometimes it was almost pure knuckles. Fighters often had swollen hands, and also conditioned their hands to take a beating with brine, small bag gloves and hitting buckets of sand and gravel. The old fighter often had jagged overgrown knuckles. This means in my experience, punch effectiveness will matter more, since one shot has a better chance of ending the fight or turning it in your favor. This would change the style. smaller gloves also accounts for more opportunities that accuracy can be an advantage, hitting in vital areas.

2) Gloves are open with no thumb attachment. You can thumb an opponent easily - look at zivic vs Armstrong, literally shut both his eyes with thumbs. brutal. Can also drag the laces across the face. You can grab arms, block the mouth and nose in clinches so they can't breath, push shoulders and employ all sorts of holding and hitting / defensive techniques that would get called today. If the opponents pulls the head down make it look like an accidental foul and nail him in the thigh as hard as you can in the opening bell. Boxers aren't used to that.

3) butting and grappling is fair game. You cant use your head as a striking weapon, but you CAN use your head. Pin your opponents shoulders, block their vision with your head, move their shoulders or even position your head behind theirs for defensive abilities. The head was apart of fighting. Armstrong employed this as well as Dempsey. If you aren't used to this, this can completely throw your game plan off. I couldn't imagine the look on some boxers faces when they had to deal with some real surgical violent foul play. It was a fight after all. If you notice Duran vs Moore, he nails Moore with a brutal thigh punch and a nasty thumb early on. sets a tone before Moore has the experience to figure out whats going on. Duran shut his eye from the get go.

4) fights were 15 rounds. Thats 3 more rounds. Picture every bout in the 12 round era and add 3 more and ask yourself the outcome. Does Leonard beat Hearns? in a 12 rounder (fight 1).

5) draw rounds were a thing, you didn't win a round because you landed 1 more jab before the bell. another reason we saw so many rubber matches.

6) Records were deeper and had more losses because of this. Because the division was deeper. Marketing played much less of a role compared to being a good fighter and to a degree being exciting or racially profiled. Fighters fought for a living and unless they won a title made hardly any money. Sometimes you had to lose 3 times to win, you gained experience that way. its was strictly about performance. You simply won't lose if you always face opponents you can beat, and styles play a real role this.------->>>> Even contenders often got in with high ranked fighters, as tune ups but also to get experience.

7) Styles make fights. Some styles beat other styles.


feel free to add more, I just can't see how people compare johnson to Ali for example, when they fought under a different rule system. If Johnson has to play by 60's rules he won't beat Ali, i'll say that much. If it's Johnsons era, he has a good chance because he can grab Ali's arms and punch his biceps with 6 oz gloves.

All salient points.Fritzie Zivic said Lew Jenkins, a terrific puncher used to push the padding back in his gloves.
Comparing fighters of different eras can never a definitive exercise,maybe that's why it continues to fascinate us?

As I'm a Brit I might say Stanley Mathews as he was could not compete in todays game,but and it's a big but,given the modern training advantages and equipment he would be a world class player today.Perhaps an American might say Red Grange or Bronko Nagurski would be great today, given access to," modern enhancements"?

[billeau2]

Before we start to make comparisons of eras going much father back, let's be sure to make note of how the sport has changed since then. Comparing a sprinter on a dirt track vs a composite track is not the same thing, so like wise with boxing.

1) Smaller gloves, by the 30's it's already switching to 8 oz. the gloves are horse hair padded, so similar to a modern reyes feel. You could roll the gloves up before a fight and push the padding back so the knuckles are tight in the glove. later on in the fight sometimes it was almost pure knuckles. Fighters often had swollen hands, and also conditioned their hands to take a beating with brine, small bag gloves and hitting buckets of sand and gravel. The old fighter often had jagged overgrown knuckles. This means in my experience, punch effectiveness will matter more, since one shot has a better chance of ending the fight or turning it in your favor. This would change the style. smaller gloves also accounts for more opportunities that accuracy can be an advantage, hitting in vital areas.

2) Gloves are open with no thumb attachment. You can thumb an opponent easily - look at zivic vs Armstrong, literally shut both his eyes with thumbs. brutal. Can also drag the laces across the face. You can grab arms, block the mouth and nose in clinches so they can't breath, push shoulders and employ all sorts of holding and hitting / defensive techniques that would get called today. If the opponents pulls the head down make it look like an accidental foul and nail him in the thigh as hard as you can in the opening bell. Boxers aren't used to that.

3) butting and grappling is fair game. You cant use your head as a striking weapon, but you CAN use your head. Pin your opponents shoulders, block their vision with your head, move their shoulders or even position your head behind theirs for defensive abilities. The head was apart of fighting. Armstrong employed this as well as Dempsey. If you aren't used to this, this can completely throw your game plan off. I couldn't imagine the look on some boxers faces when they had to deal with some real surgical violent foul play. It was a fight after all. If you notice Duran vs Moore, he nails Moore with a brutal thigh punch and a nasty thumb early on. sets a tone before Moore has the experience to figure out whats going on. Duran shut his eye from the get go.

4) fights were 15 rounds. Thats 3 more rounds. Picture every bout in the 12 round era and add 3 more and ask yourself the outcome. Does Leonard beat Hearns? in a 12 rounder (fight 1).

5) draw rounds were a thing, you didn't win a round because you landed 1 more jab before the bell. another reason we saw so many rubber matches.

6) Records were deeper and had more losses because of this. Because the division was deeper. Marketing played much less of a role compared to being a good fighter and to a degree being exciting or racially profiled. Fighters fought for a living and unless they won a title made hardly any money. Sometimes you had to lose 3 times to win, you gained experience that way. its was strictly about performance. You simply won't lose if you always face opponents you can beat, and styles play a real role this.------->>>> Even contenders often got in with high ranked fighters, as tune ups but also to get experience.

7) Styles make fights. Some styles beat other styles.


feel free to add more, I just can't see how people compare johnson to Ali for example, when they fought under a different rule system. If Johnson has to play by 60's rules he won't beat Ali, i'll say that much. If it's Johnsons era, he has a good chance because he can grab Ali's arms and punch his biceps with 6 oz gloves.

Perhaps the biggest change was how power transferred. With smaller gloves because of the small amount of padding the hand directly transmitted force into the opponent. This is a reason why the lead was so effective, and turning over the lead and making it a jab was something Johnson did but many fighters did not use a jab yet. With a piston like lead very little power was necessary, it was more a matter of catchng the tip of the chin.

With bigger gloves the dynamic switched to swinging the arms to generate power and.. instead of the lead one had to rotate the arm to generate more torque, hence we get the jab. Fighters of old had really good body dynamics and yes, they had to know how to grapple and use the thumbs and head for leverage.

[The Old LefHook]

It is not written in stone, but I always make any mythical match up under the era of the older fighter. Robinson would have to fight Fitz or Langford for more than 15 rounds, maybe 25, with tiny mittens. Those opponents would understand that equipment much better than Robby would.

You have to fight Marciano for at least 15 rounds, unless you hail from an earlier era that scheduled even longer fights. If you want John L. Sullivan, you must fight bare knuckle.

[JAB5239]

It is not written in stone, but I always make any mythical match up under the era of the older fighter. Robinson would have to fight Fitz or Langford for more than 15 rounds, maybe 25, with tiny mittens. Those opponents would understand that equipment much better than Robby would.

You have to fight Marciano for at least 15 rounds, unless you hail from an earlier era that scheduled even longer fights. If you want John L. Sullivan, you must fight bare knuckle.

This is a fair way to appraise fighters in mythical matchups in my opinion. I try to see it both ways, meaning how they would fight in the others particular era.would Johnson fight at a quicker pace with heavier gloves? Probably not. But if he was born in an era with heavier gloves he would have adjusted his style for that time, as any other fighter would. It's a guessing game all the way around but still a solid place to start an evaluation.

[QueensburyRules]

It is not written in stone, but I always make any mythical match up under the era of the older fighter. Robinson would have to fight Fitz or Langford for more than 15 rounds, maybe 25, with tiny mittens. Those opponents would understand that equipment much better than Robby would.

You have to fight Marciano for at least 15 rounds, unless you hail from an earlier era that scheduled even longer fights. If you want John L. Sullivan, you must fight bare knuckle.

- - Sully the first proponent of Queensberry Rules in America, civilized rules promoting fairness in fighting with the usual disclaimer that he was fighting an Exhibition. Sully fought very few bareknucks fights.

[The Old LefHook]

You never hear them accused of stopping a fight too quickly in the old days. The ref had to point Patterson in the right direction when he let him go on after a knockdown from Ingomar, and that was relatively modern. Make the new boys fight under tougher conditions, and see how they hold up.

[billeau2]

- - Sully the first proponent of Queensberry Rules in America, civilized rules promoting fairness in fighting with the usual disclaimer that he was fighting an Exhibition. Sully fought very few bareknucks fights.

Corbett also... I think he fought like 1?

[billeau2]

You never hear them accused of stopping a fight too quickly in the old days. The ref had to point Patterson in the right direction when he let him go on after a knockdown from Ingomar, and that was relatively modern. Make the new boys fight under tougher conditions, and see how they hold up.

Bring the "fight" back into fight sports... Then we an talk about evolution and how big fighters are the future.

[Willie Pep 229]

It is not written in stone, but I always make any mythical match up under the era of the older fighter. Robinson would have to fight Fitz or Langford for more than 15 rounds, maybe 25, with tiny mittens. Those opponents would understand that equipment much better than Robby would.

You have to fight Marciano for at least 15 rounds, unless you hail from an earlier era that scheduled even longer fights. If you want John L. Sullivan, you must fight bare knuckle.

John L would have refused a bare knuckle brawl - he was a gloved fighter. 25 plus glove fights and only four bare knuckle fights.

But not all his gloved fights were MQB rules. Kind of confusing.