Irish Heavyweight Champions (WIP)

[The Old LefHook]

Seems like a man's quality would sink pretty fast, considering the beatings they took and dealt out.

[Anthony342]

They uphold my other gripes.

The quickest way to say this:

Foxx made **** up to sell papers

Fleischer followed this

CBZ did a poor job figuring out Richard and Nat's bull

IBRO is just a copy of CBZ really

Ring of course upholds former Ring nonsense and even makes up new Ring nonsense

TBRB splits from Ring, claims some kind of integrity, and upholds everything from Ring from prior to the divorce


So if you want a source that has worked out Foxx/Fleischer lies and such nonsense those dudes wrote or put out for to sell their papers/mags and has some respected reputation guess what? You are boned. There is no source that works out the bull and tells you about it. Nor respected sources anyway. There are only sources that reprint the bull then proceed to attempt to control the narrative surrounding that bull.

TBRB is the good wholesome unbought and uncorrupted version of Ring. Except that's Ring's lineal and Ring's made up rules Ring simply pulled out of their ass with no precedence or reasoning that TBRB goes by.

How is Wlad a lineal champion? Ring made up some rating rule where 1 can fight 2 on their ratings and get called lineal.

Does TBRB do this too? There's my beef.

What the **** does John L Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzs, Jeffries, etc, you know...that actual lineal champions from a time before bodies, what do they know about ratings? Ratings did not exist. That's some return to the pre-body era of one belt one champion. Make **** up to get there using body era justifications....yeah, loads of history and integrity there.

How is Tyson stripped for inactivity? That too is just some **** Ring made up Corbett and co would have no understanding of. TBRB likes that made up bull.

It's not who was champion, it's not how the belt used to move, it's just a hosh-posh of historically themed fictions based on real life events.

Ah, so just as bad as Ring and their history sucks, got it. I don't see anything wrong with starting a new lineage though. People leave weight classes or retire sometimes and they gotta crown a new champion. So I don't see anything wrong with 2 top contenders fighting each other for a new title. Like when Marciano retired and a new heavyweight champion needed to be crowned.

[Marchegiano]

Ah, so just as bad as Ring and their history sucks, got it. I don't see anything wrong with starting a new lineage though. People leave weight classes or retire sometimes and they gotta crown a new champion. So I don't see anything wrong with 2 top contenders fighting each other for a new title. Like when Marciano retired and a new heavyweight champion needed to be crowned.

I don't either. Not even a little bit. If none of these conflated their awards and titles with lineal I would have no problem with their lists of champions.

Keeping with TBRB, if the TBRB title was just the TBRB title and TBRB made no attempt to call it lineal or designate who is lineal then I'd have no issue with TBRB because even champions awarded prior to the existence of TBRB are just being retrograde awarded similar to this thread itself.

Lineal does not have rules, it has traditions and the whole point of invoking it is to invoke those traditions. ratings are just not part of that.

In this thread I took the BUI's rules for what makes a champion and applied everything that could apply to Irish champions in history to sus the ones who do fit the rules from the ones who do not. I think the only guys who got cut are Dempsey and Ali because neither are Irish enough.

Invoking modern rules and applying them to the past is fine by me, I do it all the time.

Invoking old traditions and applying them to the present is also cool to do and something I do often.

Invoking old traditions and then applying modern rules to the present, I have issues. What's is the point in citing history if absolutely nothing about your title is historical?

It would be no different than saying you're going to watch a 15rnd decision and judge it like a 12 rounder with 12 round rules and all, but then score the entire 15 anyway, and top it off by awarding the man who won under old 15 round rules with an award that claims under modern era rules this fella would have won.

TBRB, Ring, etc, they're simply not lineal, not a replacement for lineal, not an analog of lineal. They're just made up titles with made up rules and if they were honest about made up titles and made up rules then I'd have no reason to gripe.


The reason why I have to explain to folks right now Sullivan never fought a 2, Maher was never rated 1 or 2, and Fitzsimmons has never been a rated fighter etc is because years after their deaths Ring made up their 1 vs 2 nonsense and since folks think that's lineal it's easy to assume when Jeffries dropped his belt Root and Hart were 1 and 2. It also makes it harder to convince people, no, Jeff just picked who should fight for his vacant title.

It actively makes telling the real story more difficult because people think they understand how lineal works by watching modern lineal rulings from modern outlets who claim some level of modern authority.....over a title who gets its authority from the champ alone.

Like half my favorite stories make no sense unless I explain what folks think is lineal along with what is lineal.

[The Old LefHook]

Margie, do you have any word on the milking muscle out of all those old fighters from back when cows were still miked by mitt?