Irish Heavyweight Champions (WIP)

[Marchegiano]

We'll keep looking. The name is quite famous but we know little about him.

I can throw you a few links that claim he used Yankee in Australia, but no paper sources yet.

That said, as it pertains to this thread, I'd argue Yankee is an Irish champion on the grounds he's the clear best Irish fighter of his era. No one says Jack Johnson isn't a champion because Americans didn't like him.

This doesn't change my interest in answering questions about Yanks, just saying, I don't think Irish people disliking Yankee makes him any less Irish champion.

[Willie Pep 229]

I can throw you a few links that claim he used Yankee in Australia, but no paper sources yet.

That said, as it pertains to this thread, I'd argue Yankee is an Irish champion on the grounds he's the clear best Irish fighter of his era. No one says Jack Johnson isn't a champion because Americans didn't like him.

This doesn't change my interest in answering questions about Yanks, just saying, I don't think Irish people disliking Yankee makes him any less Irish champion.

Yes of course he was Irish - I wasn't in any way trying to change your approach or decision - just throwing out what little info I had on the guy.

One day some years back I got interested in trying to figure out why the prestigious and patriotic term 'Yankee' was used in the South in a deogretory manner.

We know it was first used by the British soldiers to mock the funny sounding Americans by using a Dutch phrase to mock them, e.g. Yankee Doodle Dandy.

But as often happens with insults, the insulted will say, 'Yea, that's us," and embrace the insult/name. E.g. Quakers, Shakers, Rebels, **

I realized that the Know Nothings often used the term to describe themselves in a positive light as I offered before, but was suprised to find later that the Irish used it in a deogretory manner when referring to the Nativists/**********s.

People don't realize that the infamous New York draft riots 1863 were actually round four of the Irish-Nativist conflict in the battle for control of Manhattan. The draft was certainly the immediate spark for the riots but the participants were the same groupings as the ones from the '57 riot, the Irish vs. Nativists.

So it is pure CONJECTURE on my part how Yankee Sullivan fits into this picture, Why does an Irishman take on a nickname that was used to offend the New York Irish as not being real Americans?

You suggestion that he was campaigning as an American overseas makes sense.

We know the film and book Gangs of New York took great liberty with the historical record having characters from different decades interacting with each other, but the the overall theme of the period was kept intact. And one of its themes was how the Nativists liked to back Irish fighters for entertainment purposes, so I made the logical (Conjecture) jump regarding Yankee Sullivan's moniker.

I was more throwing it out there to see how you would react, than trying to sell it to you.

**The term 'big ****' was first used by a Christian to mock the idea/theory only to have the scientists say, "perfect name,"

[Marchegiano]

Yes of course he was Irish - I wasn't in any way trying to change your approach or decision - just throwing out what little info I had on the guy.

One day some years back I got interested in trying to figure out why the prestigious and patriotic term 'Yankee' was used in the South in a deogretory manner.

We know it was first used by the British soldiers to mock the funny sounding Americans by using a Dutch phrase to mock them, e.g. Yankee Doodle Dandy.

But as often happens with insults, the insulted will say, 'Yea, that's us," and embrace the insult/name. E.g. Quakers, Shakers, Rebels, **

I realized that the Know Nothings often used the term to describe themselves in a positive light as I offered before, but was suprised to find later that the Irish used it in a deogretory manner when referring to the Nativists/**********s.

People don't realize that the infamous New York draft riots 1863 were actually round four of the Irish-Nativist conflict in the battle for control of Manhattan. The draft was certainly the immediate spark for the riots but the participants were the same groupings as the ones from the '57 riot, the Irish vs. Nativists.

So it is pure CONJECTURE on my part how Yankee Sullivan fits into this picture, Why does an Irishman take on a nickname that was used to offend the New York Irish as not being real Americans?

You suggestion that he was campaigning as an American overseas makes sense.

We know the film and book Gangs of New York took great liberty with the historical record having characters from different decades interacting with each other, but the the overall theme of the period was kept intact. And one of its themes was how the Nativists liked to back Irish fighters for entertainment purposes, so I made the logical (Conjecture) jump regarding Yankee Sullivan's moniker.

I was more throwing it out there to see how you would react, than trying to sell it to you.

**The term 'big ****' was first used by a Christian to mock the idea/theory only to have the scientists say, "perfect name,"

Oh I see, I thought you meant it as a reason he shouldn't be considered a champion. That's my bad. To be fair, I didn't think it was a bad reason at all, just not a good enough reason to cut him on its own. He's actually, bar none, my favorite text-only fighter in history so, conjecture all day, and, I'm more than happy to help pin him down a bit firmer with whatever sources I find. He's a guy I learned about before I knew I should write some things down and keep them, but I really enjoyed learning about him the first time so this would be really fun.

Again, it's been a real long time so I don't expect the following to be 100% exact.

I am going to attempt to cover ol' sully by memory

His name is James Ambrose, Sullivan can when his papa move his family to England. For a time he went by James Sullivan, I've never actually seen that noted by a historian it's something I had picked up from paper sources. James Sullivan is actually who got sent to Australia. While in Australia Sully has to, basically, check in with his PO. Ye olden check in and ye olden P.O. but about the same. During this time is when Yankee became a first name for him.

He was fighting as Yankee Sullivan, the American, in England for the MW championship of England in 1841

He was sentenced to 20 years in Australia in 1836.

I'm pretty sure he was going by Yankee because James was banished to Australia. I kind of remember a pardon, but I'm pretty sure it was after 8 years served not 5. Besides. Yanks fights as Yanks in England as early as 1840. Only 4 years into his 20 year sentence and I don't currently see any claim to any forgiveness for him 4 years in

Like I said, he fought Hammer in 41 promoting himself as an American. This kind of made European fans not his friends. He also picked up a technique from Hammer Lane. Folks don't see to know this, but, in LPRR dudes dropped the peoples' elbow. I mean they did a standing elbow drop on downed opponents and Hammer was called Hammer because he was likely to pick you up, drop you on your head, and follow it with an elbow to the heart. Yankee learned this from Hammer Lane whose whole name is Jack Hammer Lane....****in' cool. Like a Rocky Movie

In 1842 Yankee, still acting as an "american" seconded Chris Lilly against Tom McCoy, who was Irish-American so I doubt the Irish much liked that, but I know the Americans didn't. Like the fact Yankee was helping the englishman I mean.

During the fight McCoy started flopping. Yankee advised Lilly to drop the Hammer on McCoy. As rounds go by both fighters get more tired, Lily started to get off Tom a little bit slow. Chris Lilly eventually suffocated Tom McCoy.

Lilly ****ed off back to England, Yankee stood trial in America.

During the trial Yankee is forced to confess he's actually James Ambrose of Ireland. The American press run with this and use it as a justification for anti-immigration sentiments.

He basically banned from boxing then sent on his way.

Yankee doesn't stop boxing though, he just avoids the law by boxing in more rural and gang infested areas. Making his exploits front page stuffs.

Tom Hyer goes by Young American, it'd be like a boxer today going by Tea Party. it's not political part but it's like one, a one purpose party, they were anti-immigrants.

Yankee might have gotten some Irish support for that fight, but I kind of doubt it. I'm pretty sure he was just seen as a criminal and vilified. Basically all his bull was known to people and I don't think the Irish in Ireland or America thought his fame was doing them any favors.

Yankee loses to Hyer, Hyer retires, Yankee claims the title.

I'm pretty sure you know the Morrissey fight, Poole, Dead Rabbits, the whole deal. So I'll just say imo Yankee did more than enough to prove he's the better of the two men and if not for the threat of pistols he would have won the fight.

By that point Sullivan was both a wanted criminal and a very famous pugilist. So, basically you only place he could stay in America was west. He got picked up by the Vigilance Committe, which was sort of like the Young Americas in that they were not a political party like a ********** or ******** is but more similar to a Tea Party member. I don't, honestly, think I know much about the Know Nothings or Natives, but, I think they all fall along the same lines? Not their own true party, but sections of a party, correct? Anyway, the VC was another one-policy deal and their policy was getting rid of criminals. They are very different from the Young Americans because the VC are vigilantes. They overthrew the California government and took over patrolling California.

Folks say Yankee killed himself in his cell but I think that may be lazy research. The VC picked Yankee up and the VC claimed he killed himself, but a lot of reports at the time speculated the Vigilance Committee killed Yankee because they feared if he got back in the hands of real authorities and given a fair trial he wouldn't be hanged and they were big on the death penalty. Either way, what killed him was a gash in his arm up near his shoulder. He bled out. Seems a weird way to kill yourself but I don't know.

I'll try to find sources for ****s.

[Marchegiano]

**** I did legit forget Dempsey.

The rule is at least one parent or grandparent born on the island of Ireland. So if jack's dad or grandpa can be confirmed from Ireland he can be an Irish champion.

To be clear, I didn't make this up. I got it from the BUI, the current Irish boxing sanctioning body. They formed in 1980 but recognize Irish champions as early as Peter Maher in 1890

I took the BUI's rules and applied it to champions I know of in history. So if Jack fits, if his poppa or grandpa is from Ireland, I'll add him but if not then he's just an Irish-American champion. I know his moms was from Scotland.

Nevermind, I found Jack's family tree pretty quickly. Dempsey is Irish but not Irish enough to be an Irish champion, imo.

Both his sides of his family go back into the early-mid 1700s so not even close to the grandparent cutoff. Dempseys have been here since before the revolution.

John L and Corbett, I think, have Irish parents though. I wonder why the BUI didn't include them? No honor higher than world, they're Irish enough, don't see the problem myself. What do y'all reckon?

[Marchegiano]

Okay

John L
Corbett
Tunney
Braddock

All have parents who were born in Ireland

Baer's mother's side may come from Ireland but I can't figure out how far removed. All I have is him quoted claiming she's scotch-irish.

[Willow The Wisp]

OK this is going to be messy.

If I am not mistaken while in America, Yankee Sullivan fought with the (Protestant) Nativists, often fighting against Irish opponents.

It has to do with Sullivan's choice of using the moniker 'Yankee.'

After Yankee Sullivan bested the American Irish fighter John Morrissey, but was DQ, Bill Poole (The Butcher; Gangs of New York) trird to avenge Sullivan's lost by fighting Morrissey himself

That fight ended undecided and in a brawl. Several weeks later a gang of Irish attacked Poole giving him a terrific beating, setting off the third of the four major Nativists vs. Irish gang fights (this one on July 4th, 1857.)

The Nativists (The Know Nothings or The Star Spangled Banner American Party) had used the name 'Yankee' when referring to themselves as a way to denote themselves as 'real Americans,' a slight against the recent Irish immigrants who they felt where interlopers because their ancestors didn't help free the country from Bristh rule (The American Revolution).

I am having a hard time parsing it out, but I believe once in America Sullivan sided with the Nativists and took the moniker Yankee as a symbol of his relationship with the Protestant Nativists.

In 1857 (1856 election) when the new ********** party gained control of New York State (Albany) they sent in the State Militia (NY National Guard) to seize control of the City, arresting the Tammny Hall mayor for larceny and locked him up.

The Irish had supported the ********ic mayor.

Earlier in the 1854 city elections Tammany Hall had gained control of the City with the help of the Irish gangs (they stole the election fair and square). Tammany then had to pay back the Irish with patronage (good City government jobs) for helping them win the eceltion and did so by forming the Irish street gangs into a legal (paid) police force called the City Police.

In response Albany (now under ********** control; had by the 1856 election absorbed the Know Nothings into their party) then turned the Nativist/********** controlled State Militia into the Metropolitian Police when they seized control of the city.

Eventually, sparked by the attack on Butcher Poole the 1857 riot was primarily a police riot as the Irish City Police went at it with the Nativist Metropolitan Police (or actually the ********** controlled State militia).

The **********s won control of the City and the Irish controlled City Police were officially disbanded.

It was at this time that the patriotic term Yankee first became deogretory as the Irish refused to acknowledge the Metro Police as legitimate and referred to them as 'Yankees.'

'Yankee' then came to mean to the Irish, "********** bullies" who were trying to force their way of life onto the Catholic immigrants.

Thus once the **********s gained control of the White House (Lincoln) in 1861 the term Yankee was then picked up by the South as a deogretory term as well, once again denoting, in their minds, ********** bullies who were trying to impose their way of life on the South this time. Thus began the Southern deogretory use of the term Yankee.

General Washington (Rev War) had called for all the States to dress their Militias (and thus the Continental Army) in blue to counter the red of the British, thus the New York State Militia (in 1857) when it took control of the City away from Tammany Hall was wearing dark blue uniforms.

This blue uniform distinguished them from the Irish controlled City Police. It is why even today the New York Metropolitan Police force wears the dark blue uniform resembling the Yankee blue blouse of the Civil War.

With all that said I am suspious, I think maybe Yankee Sullivan was not popular in America with the Irish, and I actually think they wouldn't like it much if you referred to Yankee Sullivan as an Irish champion. Their guy was Morrissey.

Sullivan's choice of the nickname Yankee is an odd choice for an Irishman at that time, it belonged to the Nativists.


I think!

[EDIT] SORRY THE POOLE - MORRISSEY BRAWL TOOK PLACE IN 1855 and Poole was eventually shot dead by Morrissey supporters not just beaten. The third riot then took place a yesr and a half later after the **********s got control of Albany. The riot did take place on 4th when everyone involved was good and drunk.

Facinating. Read Herbert Asbury's Gangs of New York awhile back. Great information. Great post!!!! I once visited the spot where the famous Yankee Sullivan - John Morrissey fight in Boston Corner, MA. A little area tucked between upstate New York and Massachusetts between mountains, and you can understand why an illegal fight would want to be held there. Nothing there but a farm. There is also a very nice plaque commemorating the historic event. However, the date on the plaque is 20 years off!!

[Marchegiano]

I assume everyone's good with the list and no one has any issues.

[Willow The Wisp]

I assume everyone's good with the list and no one has any issues.

Good with it. Happy hunting for those early days wide gaps. Almost certainly there were others roaming the emerald isle claiming to be the champion of Ireland.

[Willow The Wisp]

I've updated the list quite a bit. I'm going to relax on adding names because I've hit quite a wall now and there's quite, quite a lot more than the BUI + 5 list now. I wanted to tell you, I'm not dropping the start and end times of reigns because I think it's unimportant. It's because I don't know them. My dates are more like, he was definitely champion on this year. That said, after some time I'll get their reigns figured out and restore the dates. Your's is an extremely helpful resource, thanks again.

Good stuff. Random Q: Are you IBRO member?

[Marchegiano]

Good stuff. Random Q: Are you IBRO member?

No, as far as I know they don't much like me.