Was Duran An All Time Top Ten Welterweight?

[them_apples]

Yes, I know. Hearns did have the weakest out of the 4 kings relative to size; a bit of a glass canon in that sense. Jackson definitely was capable of KO’ing Hearns, though I do think Hearns had the skills to both avoid getting hit cleanly long enough to set up his own knockout shot for Jackson.

If its prior to Hagler stopping Hearns, Hearns can probably spark jackson before Jackson gets him. If its after the fact, and hearns is heavier, say at 160 + jackson probably weathers the storm and sleeps Hearns cold

[billeau2]

Well I guess Get Smart won't be getting syndicated in China anytime soon. Forgot how wonderfully culturally bigoted sixties TV could be.

I miss it so much... And you could see on shows like Get Smart, Batman, the actors loved it... Pure Schmaltz! Did you notice the Craw's henchman? Lobo! Tor, one of my all time favorite on the Schmaltz Circuit, from Ed Woods and on.

[The Old LefHook]

It is racist to mention accents now? No surprise.

[Willow The Wisp]

Hello to all. I'm new here, a revival of posting to a Boxing site following retirement from a busy career at last, and having a minute after a dozen years away from posting anywhere. I like these hypotheticals. Reminiscent of barroom discussions enjoyed decades ago. Duran ala Montreal was a buzzsaw with more embedded finesse than you could shake a stick at. Hard to beat. Made the trek up for it, I was there (Cleveland Denny was critically injured by Quebecous Gaetan Hart on that card, though we didn't know how badly he was hurt at the time). What a fight! Would go on to take titles off much bigger men than Welterweights later, proving that he was no "blown up lightweight". 147 was perfect for Duran IMO. Against the Great Sugar Ray Leonard he might have delivered his opus. A signature performance under the Marques of Queensbury rules. Top 10 is the question. After settling on a criteriea (a concoction of conjecturing prospective wins/losses against other 147 luminaries, time spent in the division, historical impact, record analysis, etc.), in measured-out parts, I can begin.
Duran was still getting title shots in 1998 and could always throw down, but most people "All-Time Rank" him at lightweight, where he stayed put awhile.
Duran was only at Welterweight for a sleepover. Only a few fights, where he managed to outfight the prime, highly formidable hall of famer Palomino and split two (literally) Super Bowl sized fights with Leonard. The picture of quality over quantity as a Welterweight. It's all opinion anyway, and we've all got those. For the one or two good souls still reading, my modern Welterweight list reads like this:
A disclaimer that I'm applying the term "modern" to anyone after 1890, where the applied rules, techniques and styles became largely what we see in common use today (A defense of that perhaps another day).

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Mickey Walker
4. Jose Napoles
5. Thomas Hearns
6. Tommy Ryan
7. Barbados Joe Walcott
8. Roberto Duran
9. Ted Kid Lewis
10. Kid Gavilan
11. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
12. Emile Griffith
13. Henry Armstrong
14. Charley Burley
15. Manny Pacquiao
16. Jack Britton
17. Wilfredo Benitez
18. Oscar DeLaHoya
19. Julio Cesar Chavez
20. Jimmy McLarnin
21. Jack Blackburn
22. Carmen Basilio
23. Felix Trinidad
24. Luis Rodriguez
25. Harry Lewis
26. Donald Curry
27. The Dixie Kid Aaron Brown
28. Pernell Whitaker
29. Shane Mosley
30. Fritzie Zivic
31. Miguel Cotto
32. Juan Manuel Marquez
33. Young Corbett III
34. Canelo Alverez
35. Jose Pipino Cuavas
36. Young Peter Jackson
37. Tony DeMarco
38. Marlon Starling
39. Billy Peteolle
40. Joe Dundee
41. Terence Crawford
42. Freddie Red Cochrane
43. Jimmy Clabby
44. Billy Graham
45. Carlos Palomino
46. Keith Thurman
47. Marty Servo
48. Errol Spence Jr.
49. Mysterious Billy Smith
50. Shawn Porter
51. James Rube Ferns
52. Curtis Cokes
53. Ceferino Garcia
54. The Cocoa Kid
55. Tommy Bell
56. Honey Melody
57. Pinky Mitchell
58. Willie Lewis
59. Jackie Fields
60. Dave Shade
61. Mike O'Dowd
62. Mike Glover
63. Pete Latzo
64. Jimmy Duffy
65. Mike Twin Sullivan
66. Kid Azteca
67. Jack Carroll
68. Sergeant Sammy Baker
69. Simon Brown
70. Don Jordan
71. Vernon Forrest
72. Manual Quintero
73. Johnny Saxton
74. Lloyd Honeyghan
75. Del Flanagan
76. Honeyboy Bratton
77. Tommy Freeman
78. Milton McCrory
79. Tippy Larkin
80. Miguez Angel Campinino
81. Ernie Roderick
82. Ike Quartey
83. Armando Muniz
84. Tony Herrera
85. Baby Joe Gans
86. Mark Breland
87. Danny Garcia
88. Tommy Miligan
89. George Costner
90. James Buddy McGirt
91. Kell Brook
92. Gaspar Ortega
93. Mushy Callahan
94. Bobby Dykes
95. Paul Williams
96. Antonio Margarito
97. Johnny Basham
98. Panama Joe Gans
99. Angel Espada
100. Ralph Dupas
101. John H. Stracey
102. Salvy Saban
103. Itallian Joe Gans
104. Billy Murphy
105. Colin Jones
106. Roger Menetrey
107. Gypsy Joe Harris
108. Curly Watson
109. Enoch Nhlapo
110. Charley Fusari
111. Johnny Greco
112. Frankie Schoell
113. California Jackie Wilson
114. Vince Martinez
115. Charlie Shipes
116. Virgil Akins
117. Gil Turner
118. Timothy Bradley Jr.
119. Oba Carr
120. Izzy Jannazzo
121. Bee Bee Wright
122. Billy Backus
123. Ernie Indian Red Lopez
124. Robert Guerrero
125. Bep van Klaveren
126. Bernard Docusend
127. **** Nelson
128. Benny Kid Paret
129. Jean Josselin
130. Pete Ranzany
131. Andre Berto
132. Clyde Gray
133. Ralph Zannelli
134. Ramon Fuentes
135. Garnet Sugar Hart
136. Hedgemon Lewis
137. George Levine
138. Gus Campbell
139. Roger Stafford
140. Randy Shields
141. Sylvan Bass
142. Dave Boy Green
143. Moshe Sherman
144. Ricardo Mayorga
145. Jose Luis Lopez
146. Carlos Quintana
147. Cliff Greenwood
148. Andy Price
149. Nino LoRocca
150. Bobby Pacho

[Willie Pep 229]

It is racist to mention accents now? No surprise.

No that's not what I was suggesting . . . I was playing with what is happening in Hollywood. The Chinese market is so large that film makers are willingly allowing the Chinese govt. to edit their films, culminating in a recent film staring a Chinese American actor where the film makers made two separate films one for distribution here and the other in China. Money talks!

[markusmod]

No that's not what I was suggesting . . . I was playing with what is happening in Hollywood. The Chinese market is so large that film makers are willingly allowing the Chinese govt. to edit their films, culminating in a recent film staring a Chinese American actor where the film makers made two separate films one for distribution here and the other in China. Money talks!

Didn't China just ban some popular movie or TV show over something that was offensive on there?

[Willie Pep 229]

Didn't China just ban some popular movie or TV show over something that was offensive on there?

Yea multiple times - they have become so aggressive that Hollywood (some) now shamelessly allowed China 'script approval' over feature films and if they can't agree, the filmmakers make two versions of the film. Sad!

It's bad enough that producers sell out to the Christians (rating system) but at least they're Americans. Lol (I know, I know that was probably a racist remark or at least jingoist. )

[The Old LefHook]

Mayweather would be pretty far down any welterweight list. He wouldn't even fight the best smaller fighters, he ain't gonna fight the great welterweights.

[billeau2]

Hello to all. I'm new here, a revival of posting to a Boxing site following retirement from a busy career at last, and having a minute after a dozen years away from posting anywhere. I like these hypotheticals. Reminiscent of barroom discussions enjoyed decades ago. Duran ala Montreal was a buzzsaw with more embedded finesse than you could shake a stick at. Hard to beat. Made the trek up for it, I was there (Cleveland Denny was critically injured by Quebecous Gaetan Hart on that card, though we didn't know how badly he was hurt at the time). What a fight! Would go on to take titles off much bigger men than Welterweights later, proving that he was no "blown up lightweight". 147 was perfect for Duran IMO. Against the Great Sugar Ray Leonard he might have delivered his opus. A signature performance under the Marques of Queensbury rules. Top 10 is the question. After settling on a criteriea (a concoction of conjecturing prospective wins/losses against other 147 luminaries, time spent in the division, historical impact, record analysis, etc.), in measured-out parts, I can begin.
Duran was still getting title shots in 1998 and could always throw down, but most people "All-Time Rank" him at lightweight, where he stayed put awhile.
Duran was only at Welterweight for a sleepover. Only a few fights, where he managed to outfight the prime, highly formidable hall of famer Palomino and split two (literally) Super Bowl sized fights with Leonard. The picture of quality over quantity as a Welterweight. It's all opinion anyway, and we've all got those. For the one or two good souls still reading, my modern Welterweight list reads like this:
A disclaimer that I'm applying the term "modern" to anyone after 1890, where the applied rules, techniques and styles became largely what we see in common use today (A defense of that perhaps another day).

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Mickey Walker
4. Jose Napoles
5. Thomas Hearns
6. Tommy Ryan
7. Barbados Joe Walcott
8. Roberto Duran
9. Ted Kid Lewis
10. Kid Gavilan
11. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
12. Emile Griffith
13. Henry Armstrong
14. Charley Burley
15. Manny Pacquiao
16. Jack Britton
17. Wilfredo Benitez
18. Oscar DeLaHoya
19. Julio Cesar Chavez
20. Jimmy McLarnin
21. Jack Blackburn
22. Carmen Basilio
23. Felix Trinidad
24. Luis Rodriguez
25. Harry Lewis
26. Donald Curry
27. The Dixie Kid Aaron Brown
28. Pernell Whitaker
29. Shane Mosley
30. Fritzie Zivic
31. Miguel Cotto
32. Juan Manuel Marquez
33. Young Corbett III
34. Canelo Alverez
35. Jose Pipino Cuavas
36. Young Peter Jackson
37. Tony DeMarco
38. Marlon Starling
39. Billy Peteolle
40. Joe Dundee
41. Terence Crawford
42. Freddie Red Cochrane
43. Jimmy Clabby
44. Billy Graham
45. Carlos Palomino
46. Keith Thurman
47. Marty Servo
48. Errol Spence Jr.
49. Mysterious Billy Smith
50. Shawn Porter
51. James Rube Ferns
52. Curtis Cokes
53. Ceferino Garcia
54. The Cocoa Kid
55. Tommy Bell
56. Honey Melody
57. Pinky Mitchell
58. Willie Lewis
59. Jackie Fields
60. Dave Shade
61. Mike O'Dowd
62. Mike Glover
63. Pete Latzo
64. Jimmy Duffy
65. Mike Twin Sullivan
66. Kid Azteca
67. Jack Carroll
68. Sergeant Sammy Baker
69. Simon Brown
70. Don Jordan
71. Vernon Forrest
72. Manual Quintero
73. Johnny Saxton
74. Lloyd Honeyghan
75. Del Flanagan
76. Honeyboy Bratton
77. Tommy Freeman
78. Milton McCrory
79. Tippy Larkin
80. Miguez Angel Campinino
81. Ernie Roderick
82. Ike Quartey
83. Armando Muniz
84. Tony Herrera
85. Baby Joe Gans
86. Mark Breland
87. Danny Garcia
88. Tommy Miligan
89. George Costner
90. James Buddy McGirt
91. Kell Brook
92. Gaspar Ortega
93. Mushy Callahan
94. Bobby Dykes
95. Paul Williams
96. Antonio Margarito
97. Johnny Basham
98. Panama Joe Gans
99. Angel Espada
100. Ralph Dupas
101. John H. Stracey
102. Salvy Saban
103. Itallian Joe Gans
104. Billy Murphy
105. Colin Jones
106. Roger Menetrey
107. Gypsy Joe Harris
108. Curly Watson
109. Enoch Nhlapo
110. Charley Fusari
111. Johnny Greco
112. Frankie Schoell
113. California Jackie Wilson
114. Vince Martinez
115. Charlie Shipes
116. Virgil Akins
117. Gil Turner
118. Timothy Bradley Jr.
119. Oba Carr
120. Izzy Jannazzo
121. Bee Bee Wright
122. Billy Backus
123. Ernie Indian Red Lopez
124. Robert Guerrero
125. Bep van Klaveren
126. Bernard Docusend
127. **** Nelson
128. Benny Kid Paret
129. Jean Josselin
130. Pete Ranzany
131. Andre Berto
132. Clyde Gray
133. Ralph Zannelli
134. Ramon Fuentes
135. Garnet Sugar Hart
136. Hedgemon Lewis
137. George Levine
138. Gus Campbell
139. Roger Stafford
140. Randy Shields
141. Sylvan Bass
142. Dave Boy Green
143. Moshe Sherman
144. Ricardo Mayorga
145. Jose Luis Lopez
146. Carlos Quintana
147. Cliff Greenwood
148. Andy Price
149. Nino LoRocca
150. Bobby Pacho

If it makes you feel any better? MODERN Philosophy, circa the mid 17 Hundreds, was brought about by Immanuel Kant. I know the feeling of how it doesn't just quite roll off the tongue informing people that Modern boxing... IMO when Dempsey's era and insights, prompted a change from a fencing paradigm to a true punching paradigm, started somewhere around the Roaring Twenties or so.

[billeau2]

Yea multiple times - they have become so aggressive that Hollywood (some) now shamelessly allowed China 'script approval' over feature films and if they can't agree, the filmmakers make two versions of the film. Sad!

It's bad enough that producers sell out to the Christians (rating system) but at least they're Americans. Lol (I know, I know that was probably a racist remark or at least jingoist. )

A little bit of "Jingoism" vis a vis with a touch of protectionism, isn't always a bad thing. Epecially when dealing with the Chinese Communist Party.