Joe Louis in the 50s

[Willie Pep 229]

circa 1952

Louis over Walcott KO (8) Louis wins HW Title

Louis over Marciano SD (15) each fighter down once

Louis over Machen UD (12)

Louis over Liston TKO (8)

Louis over Johansson KO (4) Louis down once early

Louis over Patterson TKO (13) Louis behind on the cards (Shades of Billy Conn) / Patterson down three times in 13th

Louis Retires . . . title splits (NBA/NYSAC) . . . Clay unites title (circa 1963/4) . . . too old (broke/in debt) Louis makes comeback.

Clay over Louis UD (15) Louis retires for good; a beat down until Clay chooses to carry him late.

. . . . . . .

Louis's 'bums' circa mid to late1950s

Hurricane Jackson KO (7)
Nino Valdez KO (6)
Ezzard Charles UD (15)
Zora Folley KO (12)
Archie Moore KO (6)
Henry Cooper TKO (6)

[JAB5239]

circa 1952

Louis over Walcott KO (8) Louis wins HW Title

Louis over Marciano SD (15) each fighter down once

Louis over Machen UD (12)

Louis over Liston TKO (8)

Louis over Johansson KO (4) Louis down once early

Louis over Patterson TKO (13) Louis behind on the cards (Shades of Billy Conn) / Patterson down three times in 13th

Louis Retires . . . title splits (NBA/NYSAC) . . . Clay unites title (circa 1963/4) . . . too old (broke/in debt) Louis makes comeback.

Clay over Louis UD (15) Louis retires for good; a beat down until Clay chooses to carry him late.

. . . . . . .

Louis's 'bums' circa mid to late1950s

Hurricane Jackson KO (7)
Nino Valdez KO (6)
Ezzard Charles UD (15)
Zora Folley KO (12)
Archie Moore KO (6)
Henry Cooper TKO (6)

11 title defenses. Pretty darn good still. Do Marciano and Liston still go on to become all time greats? If not it takes away some luster from the proposed scenario.

[markusmod]

11 title defenses. Pretty darn good still. Do Marciano and Liston still go on to become all time greats? If not it takes away some luster from the proposed scenario.

Jab makes a good point here.

[Willie Pep 229]

11 title defenses. Pretty darn good still. Do Marciano and Liston still go on to become all time greats? If not it takes away some luster from the proposed scenario.

True - in this WI scenario I am probably remiss in not giving Marciano a rematch. -- I wasn't really sure how Liston plays out -- This entire What If scenario leaves out the very real involvement of the corrupt IBC.

It makes you wonder, if Louis wasn't around in the 1930s would someone else have stepped up to become an ATG - with Louis in the '50s it is not unrealistic for Marciano to be lost to history.

I fear that when a decade has a dominate champion some great fighters never really get to shine. What if Ali had not been banned and beats Fraizer by a UD in 1969, do we talk about Frazier today?

Just want to add that I put Charles in the 'bum' category not becuse of his capabilities obviously, but because I envisioned him as holding the HW title in the late 1940s and losing it to Walcott as he actually did . . . and then by mid-50s (trying to make a comeback) he would have been on his way down (which I think was his reality).

Thanks for the reply.

[QueensburyRules]

I fear that when a decade has a dominate champion some great fighters never really get to shine. What if Ali had not been banned and beats Fraizer by a UD in 1969, do we talk about Frazier today?

- -More likely what we know is that presuspension Ali was fighting the leftover remnents of the Rocky retirement 50s.

Joe had already easily disposed of two guys giving Ali hell, Doug Jones and Chuvalo, and a fighter Ali never got to, Eddie Machen, so Joe was ready as they come at the end of 67 for a title challenge, much more so by results than Ali was getting arguably KOed against little Cooper and arguably beat by Jones before his Sonny Challenge.

So, let's tackle 69 by looking at 68 where Joe had to work mighty hard to dispose of undefeated Buster Mathis for the title. If Ali stays active, maybe that bout don't come off because more probably Ali fight's the huge Mathis trained by D'Amato to beat Ali. Cus who had Ali's number as far as dissecting his weaknesses, so it's debatable if Ali wins Mathis. In 68 Joe also beat Bonavena in the rematch and would also go on to dispose of Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, and Bob Foster consecutively, and later Big George, all before Ali ever got to them and and a better streak of hot prime competition than Ali ever had.

Point being more likely Ali would've never become the mythical, invincible suspension Ali victimized by The Man. Joe wins in 67/68/69/70/71/72/73, ie any of those years you want to chose as your hypothetical...

[DeeMoney]

I think in this timeline, the New Louis misses out on Marciano. Assuming Rocky still retires in 1955, then New Louis would be just 21 at the time, and probably seen as the up and comer to take the title after Rocky retired.

This Louis probably defeats an old Moore or Charles in 1956 to be crowned the new Heavyweight Champ. I see him having some good defenses against the Patterson, Johansson, Foley, Machen, and Williams group during his reign in the late 50s; he may not fight all of them, but probably faces most of that crew. Though those are all VERY tough fights and he could be upset, I'd see him as being the better fighter and getting the nod. Probably mix in a couple lighter touch defenses until sometime in the early 60s when he'd run into Liston (assuming he had the same trajectory), thats when it gets interesting.

I'd favor him against Liston, but thats a barn burner, for the sake of argument lets say that Liston gets him in the first fight but Louis takes a rematch, becoming the first heavyweight to regain the title. This puts him, at least on how history shook down, in line to defend against a Young Clay, but I don't think that happens. Clay's management team keeps him away from a 'late Prime Louis'. Louis takes down Cooper and a couple of other soft touches, while Clay builds up a bit. Then sometime in about '66 or '67 Clay takes on a just past prime Louis, and out points him.

Louis picks up a few more wins before retiring, and is seen as the hero of the older generation, and the embodiment of how good things were in the "good ol' days" of the 50s. I'm not gonna even try to guess about the whole Clay to Ali, war protest etc. Who knows, maybe he would have become Ali before actually getting the title fight, and then never given the opportunity.