If they did an all time heavyweight tournament whod win?

[Ben Bolt]

Holmes is another possibility. I would like to hear some of those who love Holmes make a case for the Easton Assasin.

He had the heart as big as Ali's, and why I see him as a candidate to win this tournament.

Prime Ali wins.

Did we ever witness the prime Ali? What would he have looked like in 1968-69?

But, it's heavyweight. Any fluke punch could have eliminated a favorite.
I pick Jimmy Braddock.

[HOUDINI563]

Prime Ali is considered at some point during his first reign. We can only speculate regarding the years he was in exile.

[HOUDINI563]

If you consider Marciano and Frazier you must consider Dempsey who was both their superior.

[DeeMoney]

So lets say they did this tournament 100 times, who would you say wins it at least once. In other words which fighters would you give at least a 1% chance of winning?

Would anyone give someone other than: Ali, Louis, Foreman, Tyson, Dempsey, Marciano, Holmes, Fury, Lewis, Holyfield, Frazier, or Liston greater than a 1% chance of winning? That includes the Klitchko Bros, Johnson (or any other pre Dempsey heavies), and a number of great Light Heavies who made a run at heavy (Tunney, Charles, etc). Think about it before you write 'yes' though. Its easy to say you give others a greater than 1% chance, but I already listed 12 other fighters, so you'd then be saying the others average less than 8% of a chance apiece.

Its akin to how many people will blindly say they have "so-and-so" in their top 10, only to later realize they have upwards of 15 in their top 10.

[famicommander]

It would depend on the match-ups.

Lennox Lewis and Larry Holmes at their absolute peaks are a problem for anybody. Obviously Ali, Foreman, Louis, and Frazier are a problem for anybody. I don't see Tyson, Holyfield, or Marciano as being big enough. You figure somebody, at some point, catches Wlad on his glass jaw.

[billeau2]

Fury was domestic level when he faced Cunningham. Tyson doesn't have any tools that would trouble Fury IMO, and was knocked out after being outboxed by Douglas. Whilst Liston has the equal reach, Fury has the height and agility, plus he's much more awkward than Liston. I think Ali is tailor-made for Fury, always have done, always will do. I think style for style, Foreman is his toughest fight, but I think Fury beats him over 12.

Foreman made Frazier look like a child, and much lesser fighters took Foreman's punches better than Frazier, Frazier folded like a deck chair under the pressure of the bigger, stronger man, the later knockdowns he was just jumping to the floor as he couldn't handle the pressure and strength, Fury would crush Frazier like a hammer to a g****.

Also, Fury can punch, not a monster, but when he sits down on his shots, they are the type of shots you cannot walk through, and for me, he punches much harder than Ali, and I have seen tons of Ali fights to base this on.

Fury is also the biggest out of all the great HW's and has the hardest style to prepare for, along with his mental toughness, and his recovery speed from being hurt is remarkable, this is counting four knockdowns, and the 3 or so other times I HAVE SEEN him stung, his recovery speed is like nothing I have ever seen before on a consistent basis.

I can accept people think a few other guys could beat him, but if anyone thinks Fury is an easy night's work for any HW in history, they are very wrong.

Please tell me you are trolling

[billeau2]

He had the heart as big as Ali's, and why I see him as a candidate to win this tournament.


Did we ever witness the prime Ali? What would he have looked like in 1968-69?

But, it's heavyweight. Any fluke punch could have eliminated a favorite.
I pick Jimmy Braddock.

How about Jimmy Young for that matter?

[Willie Pep 229]

I agree and furthermore in this tournament you need to eliminate anyone who has been knocked out clean during his prime. Lewis, Wald, Frazier, Etc. You got to figure in a tournament like this everyone at some point is going to take at least one big shot and those that have shown to have a 'dimple' in their chins just won't be able to make it through a 32 bracket - which means five fights all against ATGs.

I also believe that you must rule out everyone before Dempsey. That back foot style of fighting isn't going to be competive against modern styles. Even if they survive judges are going to be prejudicial against the style.

When you say 'no adjustment for time' does that include equipment? Never mind the glove and wrapping issues, before 1931 protective kidney belts were not only not mandatory but they were actually illegal. Dempsey - Tunney never had such protection. Worst yet, mouth pieces were not allowed until circa1928.

Don't know why we even try to do this but my prediction: someone who fought between 1960 and 2000.

[billeau2]

So lets say they did this tournament 100 times, who would you say wins it at least once. In other words which fighters would you give at least a 1% chance of winning?

Would anyone give someone other than: Ali, Louis, Foreman, Tyson, Dempsey, Marciano, Holmes, Fury, Lewis, Holyfield, Frazier, or Liston greater than a 1% chance of winning? That includes the Klitchko Bros, Johnson (or any other pre Dempsey heavies), and a number of great Light Heavies who made a run at heavy (Tunney, Charles, etc). Think about it before you write 'yes' though. Its easy to say you give others a greater than 1% chance, but I already listed 12 other fighters, so you'd then be saying the others average less than 8% of a chance apiece.

Its akin to how many people will blindly say they have "so-and-so" in their top 10, only to later realize they have upwards of 15 in their top 10.

what I tried to do was set up match ups that would definitely eliminate certain fighters... Kind of similar idea. In doing so I would make your initial 1% smaller... I would eliminate Louis, Tyson, Foreman, Fury, Lewis, and Frazier... I might keep Tunney around. To me if a fighter can be eliminated logically its the best way to leave who is left standing. Even an exceptional fighter... Take Louis or Dempsey, two of the absolute best. Dempsey may have not been prime but lost to Tunney. Louis had weaknesses with his chin. So I have to figure somewhere down the line he gets caught. Foreman could be outworked, bad stamina. Fury? no... lol. Frazier already lost to Foreman and would have problems with other big strong heavies like Liston. Charles lost to Marciano. Tunney? Dark Horse for me... Probably not big enough but could get by Liston its possible. Ali had the chin, and could frustrate the boxers like Tunney. marciano? anything is possible ith Marciano lol.

Im left with Holly and Liston because they match up so well. Holly beat Tyson and Bowe... his weaknesses are fewer in terms of stylistically matching up. He could fight the big strong punchers and the boxers. But Holly could be outboxed by Tunney, Charles, etc... That is a possibility.

Im left with Liston and Ali. Liston had the attributes to beat any other fighter on the list Ali as well. So I am willing to give Liston and Ali the best chance, followed by Holly, Holmes, and Marciano. Then Tunney.

Now, if they fought the tourney 100 times, I would expect my favorites to win most of time because they were chosen specifically based on how they matched up... For exampIe, I don't think Liston was better than Louis, but, I do think he matches up better against the other fighters in the tournament.

[Willie Pep 229]

what I tried to do was set up match ups that would definitely eliminate certain fighters... Kind of similar idea. In doing so I would make your initial 1% smaller... I would eliminate Louis, Tyson, Foreman, Fury, Lewis, and Frazier... I might keep Tunney around. To me if a fighter can be eliminated logically its the best way to leave who is left standing. Even an exceptional fighter... Take Louis or Dempsey, two of the absolute best. Dempsey may have not been prime but lost to Tunney. Louis had weaknesses with his chin. So I have to figure somewhere down the line he gets caught. Foreman could be outworked, bad stamina. Fury? no... lol. Frazier already lost to Foreman and would have problems with other big strong heavies like Liston. Charles lost to Marciano. Tunney? Dark Horse for me... Probably not big enough but could get by Liston its possible. Ali had the chin, and could frustrate the boxers like Tunney. marciano? anything is possible ith Marciano lol.

Im left with Holly and Liston because they match up so well. Holly beat Tyson and Bowe... his weaknesses are fewer in terms of stylistically matching up. He could fight the big strong punchers and the boxers. But Holly could be outboxed by Tunney, Charles, etc... That is a possibility.

Im left with Liston and Ali. Liston had the attributes to beat any other fighter on the list Ali as well. So I am willing to give Liston and Ali the best chance, followed by Holly, Holmes, and Marciano. Then Tunney.

Now, if they fought the tourney 100 times, I would expect my favorites to win most of time because they were chosen specifically based on how they matched up... For exampIe, I don't think Liston was better than Louis, but, I do think he matches up better against the other fighters in the tournament.

Yea match-ups!

When we say run it a 100 times im our mind is that with the same seedings? What if we run it a 100 times with ten different seedings.

Is it true? After Foreman first retired Ali called Foreman and said 'come out of retirement and take care of Norton for me and I promise a rematch.' . . . Match-ups!

Match-ups would count quite a bit and any gedankenexperiment has to include different seeds.