Is Duran the greatest fighter still alive today?

[Willie Pep 229]

no when leonard chose to use his natural boxing skill he vanquished Duran and made him quit.....it’s called boxing and when leonard boxed him Duran lost....Leonard openly admits Duran psyched him out and made him want to fight toe to toe in there first fight.....look I like Duran but the bottom line is Duran lost 16 times so if you really count longevity Duran career really did nothing in the last 10 years of his *** end career......it’s all well and good having a longer career and more fights but if you lose half of them and don’t beat a world class fighter it means nothing....and another thing Duran turned pro at 16 and had no amateur accolades and titles where is Leonard did and won them all...leonard overall skills were better than durans and that’s why he came out on top in head to head and also beating hagler , hearns and Benitez and Duran lost to them.....I listen to many radio and tv presenters who constantly say Leonard is the best fighter they have seen in there lifetime skill wise......Duran gets to many passes when you consider his defeats and how he lost and like Duran alot

It's called prize fighting, boxing is just a marital art deployed to win a prize fight, it shouldn't be an end unto itself. Going into a fight determined only to win the boxing match and not risk trying to win the fight steals from the game.

[The plunger man]

It's called prize fighting, boxing is just a marital art deployed to win a prize fight, it shouldn't be an end unto itself. Going into a fight determined only to win the boxing match and not risk trying to win the fight steals from the game.

the criteria for boxing has always been to score more points than the other and to hit him more than he hits you....it’s the reason why the Marquis of Queensbury set all the rules and the point is you use your best advantages to come out on to.....and if boxing makes you come out as the winner that’s what you do...period

[Willie Pep 229]

the criteria for boxing has always been to score more points than the other and to hit him more than he hits you....it’s the reason why the Marquis of Queensbury set all the rules and the point is you use your best advantages to come out on to.....and if boxing makes you come out as the winner that’s what you do...period

The MQ rules were safety measures and weren't created to score fights or establish decision winners.

Decision fights is a "gift" from the gamblers.

Counting "points' is a perversion that crept into the game as Amerrica became apologetic for the fight game. We now play this silly game where one fighter sticks a stiff left jab in to another man's face and some idiot yells out 'he's scoring points.' Points?

All so we can pretend it's a sporting event and hide from the reality that it is a fist fight; it's a damn fist fight, not an amateur athletic competition.

I watched the the Marciano-Walcott fight with Dan Dumphrey announcing. Once, and only once, around the eighth round did he comment that the judges probably have Walcott ahead. Only one mention of the judges, can you imagine that?

He NEVER once used that silly word 'points' -- he called the fight in front of him and didn't try to pretend it was a sporting event, he called it a fight.

"Points" -- damn what a perversion of the game that has become.

Maybe we need need two different businesses: 'professional boxing' where you can count things and 'prize fighting' where I can watch a fight.

[them_apples]

no when leonard chose to use his natural boxing skill he vanquished Duran and made him quit.....it’s called boxing and when leonard boxed him Duran lost....Leonard openly admits Duran psyched him out and made him want to fight toe to toe in there first fight.....look I like Duran but the bottom line is Duran lost 16 times so if you really count longevity Duran career really did nothing in the last 10 years of his *** end career......it’s all well and good having a longer career and more fights but if you lose half of them and don’t beat a world class fighter it means nothing....and another thing Duran turned pro at 16 and had no amateur accolades and titles where is Leonard did and won them all...leonard overall skills were better than durans and that’s why he came out on top in head to head and also beating hagler , hearns and Benitez and Duran lost to them.....I listen to many radio and tv presenters who constantly say Leonard is the best fighter they have seen in there lifetime skill wise......Duran gets to many passes when you consider his defeats and how he lost and like Duran alot

Ok so by this analogy where Leonard claims he got lulled into a brawl and lost because of it (which is no excuse) then we should also give Duran the benefit of the doubt as well, in saying he likely quit because he put on too much weight after the first fight and Leonard knowingly got the rematch going as soon as possible.

You can't have a double standard when it comes to excuses. The most important match was the first one, Leonard had everything going for him, bigger, undefeated and younger. Duran wasn't supposed to win but he showed up to win. Anyone can see that night was a different night than the second fight, which sure, had Leonard playing keep away, but also saw Duran walking around flat footed. The crazy thing is, that months long celebration which saw Duran balloon up to 180-200 lbs saw Duran never fully recover, he fought flat footed and conserved his stamina from then on. I think that was truly the end of Durans prime.

Last but not least, when that fight was stopped make no mistake Duran was right in that fight, he couldn't have been trailing that much.

I think it's testament to Leonards ring confidence to make a guy Like Duran quit under any circumstances, and it's testament to Durans greatness to go in the underdog with all odds against him and come out on top.

Of the greater wins though, Durans is far greater. Leonard wasn't even supposed to lose.

I'm also curious where you came up with the notion that Leonard had more skills than Duran. Which I totally disagree with. Leonard was faster and bigger and still lost, he lost because of Durans superior skill and will. Nobody could ride punches better than Duran, he might have the best headmovement of all time.

[GhostofDempsey]

no when leonard chose to use his natural boxing skill he vanquished Duran and made him quit.....it’s called boxing and when leonard boxed him Duran lost....Leonard openly admits Duran psyched him out and made him want to fight toe to toe in there first fight.....look I like Duran but the bottom line is Duran lost 16 times so if you really count longevity Duran career really did nothing in the last 10 years of his *** end career......it’s all well and good having a longer career and more fights but if you lose half of them and don’t beat a world class fighter it means nothing....and another thing Duran turned pro at 16 and had no amateur accolades and titles where is Leonard did and won them all...leonard overall skills were better than durans and that’s why he came out on top in head to head and also beating hagler , hearns and Benitez and Duran lost to them.....I listen to many radio and tv presenters who constantly say Leonard is the best fighter they have seen in there lifetime skill wise......Duran gets to many passes when you consider his defeats and how he lost and like Duran alot

Duran outboxed him in their first fight. When both were at their best. Duran was not at his best for the rematch. A majority of historians and writers rank Duran higher. Your opinion doesn’t change that.

[them_apples]

The MQ rules were safety measures and weren't created to score fights or establish decision winners.

Decision fights is a "gift" from the gamblers.

Counting "points' is a perversion that crept into the game as Amerrica became apologetic for the fight game. We now play this silly game where one fighter sticks a stiff left jab in to another man's face and some idiot yells out 'he's scoring points.' Points?

All so we can pretend it's a sporting event and hide from the reality that it is a fist fight; it's a damn fist fight, not an amateur athletic competition.

I watched the the Marciano-Walcott fight with Dan Dumphrey announcing. Once, and only once, around the eighth round did he comment that the judges probably have Walcott ahead. Only one mention of the judges, can you imagine that?

He NEVER once used that silly word 'points' -- he called the fight in front of him and didn't try to pretend it was a sporting event, he called it a fight.

"Points" -- damn what a perversion of the game that has become.

Maybe we need need two different businesses: 'professional boxing' where you can count things and 'prize fighting' where I can watch a fight.

100 percent agree with this. It used to be judged by "who you would have rather been at the end of the round". Aka effective punching should be the only method of scoring. And that includes if one fighter can't hurt the other. If one fighter can't hurt another fighter and keeps getting buckled but "scores more points", he should still lose because he's not winning.

How can you win a fight if your punches have no effect on your oponent? Like Taylor vs Chavez, frequently touted as a robbery, but in my book was a saving grace. Taylor was getting his ass kicked and that's why he talks the way he does today, literally. To score that fight for him because he was shoe shining is an insult to professional boxing.

[The plunger man]

The MQ rules were safety measures and weren't created to score fights or establish decision winners.

Decision fights is a "gift" from the gamblers.

Counting "points' is a perversion that crept into the game as Amerrica became apologetic for the fight game. We now play this silly game where one fighter sticks a stiff left jab in to another man's face and some idiot yells out 'he's scoring points.' Points?

All so we can pretend it's a sporting event and hide from the reality that it is a fist fight; it's a damn fist fight, not an amateur athletic competition.

I watched the the Marciano-Walcott fight with Dan Dumphrey announcing. Once, and only once, around the eighth round did he comment that the judges probably have Walcott ahead. Only one mention of the judges, can you imagine that?

He NEVER once used that silly word 'points' -- he called the fight in front of him and didn't try to pretend it was a sporting event, he called it a fight.

"Points" -- damn what a perversion of the game that has become.

Maybe we need need two different businesses: 'professional boxing' where you can count things and 'prize fighting' where I can watch a fight.

it’s widely considered that gene Tunney was actually a better boxer than Jack Dempsey and each time they boxed he comfortably beat him on points.......look we all love the big KO and the knockout puncher.....or the slugfest with both guys killing each other but as I said the object of the sport is to win over 12 rounds and if you win on points you still win.....whether you like it or not pep that is the rules.......maybe your stuck in 1921 still I don’t know.
there are 3 men who sit by the ropes who always I repeat always fill out score cards just in case a stoppage doesn’t come....it’s called points and deciding a winner

[The plunger man]

Ok so by this analogy where Leonard claims he got lulled into a brawl and lost because of it (which is no excuse) then we should also give Duran the benefit of the doubt as well, in saying he likely quit because he put on too much weight after the first fight and Leonard knowingly got the rematch going as soon as possible.

You can't have a double standard when it comes to excuses. The most important match was the first one, Leonard had everything going for him, bigger, undefeated and younger. Duran wasn't supposed to win but he showed up to win. Anyone can see that night was a different night than the second fight, which sure, had Leonard playing keep away, but also saw Duran walking around flat footed. The crazy thing is, that months long celebration which saw Duran balloon up to 180-200 lbs saw Duran never fully recover, he fought flat footed and conserved his stamina from then on. I think that was truly the end of Durans prime.

Last but not least, when that fight was stopped make no mistake Duran was right in that fight, he couldn't have been trailing that much.

I think it's testament to Leonards ring confidence to make a guy Like Duran quit under any circumstances, and it's testament to Durans greatness to go in the underdog with all odds against him and come out on top.

Of the greater wins though, Durans is far greater. Leonard wasn't even supposed to lose.

I'm also curious where you came up with the notion that Leonard had more skills than Duran. Which I totally disagree with. Leonard was faster and bigger and still lost, he lost because of Durans superior skill and will. Nobody could ride punches better than Duran, he might have the best headmovement of all time.

Duran always ballooned up in weight....he was a notorious bad trainer and ray arcel had to regularly drag him out of bed so blaming him for putting on weight is a weak excuse.......when he signed the leonard fight he signed up to the rematch and Leonard exercised that rematch clause mid August.....Duran had over 12 weeks to get ready for that fight and it’s only an excuse now but in reality ray arcel and Duran said they had prepared properly for the fight.
Ray arcel actually stated he had no idea why Duran quit and Duran never complained one time about stomach cramps during the fight.
so again your argument is wrong and the final statement they boxed 3 times and the rubber match Duran never got near him and lost almost ever round and yet you say Duran had more skill.....whats your excuse ? He just came off a miracle performance against Iran Barkley and fight of the year and yet he was completely outboxed in his next fight against leonard ? So what is your excuse this time ? It was rubber match so both were physically prepared and were up for the fight....why did Duran lose almost every round ?

[them_apples]

Duran always ballooned up in weight....he was a notorious bad trainer and ray arcel had to regularly drag him out of bed so blaming him for putting on weight is a weak excuse.......when he signed the leonard fight he signed up to the rematch and Leonard exercised that rematch clause mid August.....Duran had over 12 weeks to get ready for that fight and it’s only an excuse now but in reality ray arcel and Duran said they had prepared properly for the fight.
Ray arcel actually stated he had no idea why Duran quit and Duran never complained one time about stomach cramps during the fight.
so again your argument is wrong and the final statement they boxed 3 times and the rubber match Duran never got near him and lost almost ever round and yet you say Duran had more skill.....whats your excuse ? He just came off a miracle performance against Iran Barkley and fight of the year and yet he was completely outboxed in his next fight against leonard ? So what is your excuse this time ? It was rubber match so both were physically prepared and were up for the fight....why did Duran lose almost every round ?

Well what kind of excuse is Leonards? Him claiming he fought the wrong fight? Is that even an excuse? Lol. He got out fought and shoulda stayed tf away?

And no, Duran after the first Leonard fight partied like he had never had. He partied for 2 months straight.

Even taking this out of the equation, Duran seemed more lethargic on his feet. Plodding around and hungover.

Of course Arcel told the press he was in shape, that's what they always do. But LEONARD himself said he scheduled the fight as soon as possible because he knew Duran was gonna blow up. So clearly it was an obvious factor.

Your responses and descriptions lead me to believe you know about Leonard but barely about Duran. I suggest you study both of them. Cause most of your arguments are the most common press clippings.

I'm not here to say Duran should have an excuse for any of this, I'm here to argue that Leonard gets absolutely 0 excuse for losing the first fight. And that needs to be acknowledged. Duran fought a brilliant fight and a brilliant mind game. You keep writing off Durans win as if it's somehow less significant than Leonards. It's not, Durans is actually more significant, he's just not American.

[them_apples]

Duran always ballooned up in weight....he was a notorious bad trainer and ray arcel had to regularly drag him out of bed so blaming him for putting on weight is a weak excuse.......when he signed the leonard fight he signed up to the rematch and Leonard exercised that rematch clause mid August.....Duran had over 12 weeks to get ready for that fight and it’s only an excuse now but in reality ray arcel and Duran said they had prepared properly for the fight.
Ray arcel actually stated he had no idea why Duran quit and Duran never complained one time about stomach cramps during the fight.
so again your argument is wrong and the final statement they boxed 3 times and the rubber match Duran never got near him and lost almost ever round and yet you say Duran had more skill.....whats your excuse ? He just came off a miracle performance against Iran Barkley and fight of the year and yet he was completely outboxed in his next fight against leonard ? So what is your excuse this time ? It was rubber match so both were physically prepared and were up for the fight....why did Duran lose almost every round ?

First of all, most people don't even know a 3rd Leonard Duran fight even exists. It was basically a sparring exhibition. Yes Durans famous win over Barkley, they underestimated him and styles make fights, you brawl with the best brawler of all time and have poor defense, you can't beat him even if you are twice his size. But make no mistake that was a tough fight for Duran. You act like he steam rolled Barkley and was in prime shape. He dug that one out on pure experience and trickery.

The fact that you are even bringing it up shows your lack of understanding at this point. That fight is insignificant. It's like bringing up the Holmes loss about Ali, or Tyson losing to McBride.

When Duran was at his absolute best he's better than Leonard. But being as talented and unique as Duran was, came a lot of vices. The same things that made him great also destroyed him. Not preparing for oponents because he had no fear of them at all, Durans the type of guy that would walk into a world title fight on 1 week notice. This is why his career was so up and down. He wasn't a professional. But when he was motivated his talent out shines Leonard. Both psychologically and skillwise. I want to say even athletically, Durans natural body balance was second to none. Short stocky limbs and a wide frame, but still lean and athletic to move fast. He was built for punching.