Is Duran the greatest fighter still alive today?

[Willie Pep 229]

it’s widely considered that gene Tunney was actually a better boxer than Jack Dempsey and each time they boxed he comfortably beat him on points.......look we all love the big KO and the knockout puncher.....or the slugfest with both guys killing each other but as I said the object of the sport is to win over 12 rounds and if you win on points you still win.....whether you like it or not pep that is the rules.......maybe your stuck in 1921 still I don’t know.
there are 3 men who sit by the ropes who always I repeat always fill out score cards just in case a stoppage doesn’t come....it’s called points and deciding a winner

Did you really believe you needed to explain the current situation to me or were you just being condescending?

Tunney is a perfect example of what I am about. He went after Dempsey as dangerous as he might be. A master boxer who wasn't interested in your three fat ( sometimes crooked) men sitting at ringside to tell him he won.

Yes it was the first time the title changed hands via a decision but Tunney took it to Dempsey and won - nobody was counting 'points.'

What is so wrong with 1921? You believe the game is better today? In what way?

Today too many fighters enter the ring never intending to do anything more than to impress your three fat boys with their boxing skills.

It's a prize fight not a boxing exhibition. You seem to have lost sight of that.

And I bore easily!

I still want my money back from Leonard-Hagler that was not a prize fight. Now Leonard- Hearns, that was a prize fight.

[Willie Pep 229]

Duran always ballooned up in weight....he was a notorious bad trainer and ray arcel had to regularly drag him out of bed so blaming him for putting on weight is a weak excuse.......when he signed the leonard fight he signed up to the rematch and Leonard exercised that rematch clause mid August.....Duran had over 12 weeks to get ready for that fight and it’s only an excuse now but in reality ray arcel and Duran said they had prepared properly for the fight.
Ray arcel actually stated he had no idea why Duran quit and Duran never complained one time about stomach cramps during the fight.
so again your argument is wrong and the final statement they boxed 3 times and the rubber match Duran never got near him and lost almost ever round and yet you say Duran had more skill.....whats your excuse ? He just came off a miracle performance against Iran Barkley and fight of the year and yet he was completely outboxed in his next fight against leonard ? So what is your excuse this time ? It was rubber match so both were physically prepared and were up for the fight....why did Duran lose almost every round ?

Maybe Duran quit becuse he realized the man in front of him never intended to fight him just box and clown - had it gone on it would have turned out just like the Hagler fight.

We all knew going in that Leonard could out box both men but we wanted to see if he beat them in a prize fight. Guess we'll never know.

Seriously Duran quit becuse he knew he could never out box Leonard and he knew Leonard had no intention of fighting him.

The game is tarnished by 'points'

[Willie Pep 229]

Duran always ballooned up in weight....he was a notorious bad trainer and ray arcel had to regularly drag him out of bed so blaming him for putting on weight is a weak excuse.......when he signed the leonard fight he signed up to the rematch and Leonard exercised that rematch clause mid August.....Duran had over 12 weeks to get ready for that fight and it’s only an excuse now but in reality ray arcel and Duran said they had prepared properly for the fight.
Ray arcel actually stated he had no idea why Duran quit and Duran never complained one time about stomach cramps during the fight.
so again your argument is wrong and the final statement they boxed 3 times and the rubber match Duran never got near him and lost almost ever round and yet you say Duran had more skill.....whats your excuse ? He just came off a miracle performance against Iran Barkley and fight of the year and yet he was completely outboxed in his next fight against leonard ? So what is your excuse this time ? It was rubber match so both were physically prepared and were up for the fight....why did Duran lose almost every round ?

Furthermore Leonard-Duran III . . .

Before I continue let me say I am not one of those poster that believes there is ever a wrong and right in these discussions - I don't ask challenging questions trying to back you into a corner or declare victory, scream my facts and proof are better than yours. Etc. I envision this as a few guys sharing some pints in a pub mouthing off about the fight game. It should be fun. I would prefer to avoid adversarial discussions.

Furthermore Lronard-Duran III is a great example of my Leonard complaint.

Conventional wisdom has it that Duran just found another way to quit. But what I saw was Duran trying to make it a fight for six rounds and Leonard repeating his Hagler performance. Duran finally stopped following him around and stood flat footed in front of Leonard and waited.

If a fighter ever stopped and stood in front of Willie Pep he would have had the guy's lunch. But Leonard's feet were nailed to the canvas, he wouldn't move forward. Duran exposed that Leonard was no longer a fighter, just a boxer.

He was in the beginning both but by the end he wasn't.

Leonard was one of the all time great boxers and as I said before we all knew he could outbox anyone, but in the end he came up short as a fighter.

Willie Pep was a great boxer as well and could out box everyone in his day, but if Duran ever tried to call him out, the way he did Leonard, Pep would have jumped him.

[The plunger man]

First of all, most people don't even know a 3rd Leonard Duran fight even exists. It was basically a sparring exhibition. Yes Durans famous win over Barkley, they underestimated him and styles make fights, you brawl with the best brawler of all time and have poor defense, you can't beat him even if you are twice his size. But make no mistake that was a tough fight for Duran. You act like he steam rolled Barkley and was in prime shape. He dug that one out on pure experience and trickery.

The fact that you are even bringing it up shows your lack of understanding at this point. That fight is insignificant. It's like bringing up the Holmes loss about Ali, or Tyson losing to McBride.

When Duran was at his absolute best he's better than Leonard. But being as talented and unique as Duran was, came a lot of vices. The same things that made him great also destroyed him. Not preparing for oponents because he had no fear of them at all, Durans the type of guy that would walk into a world title fight on 1 week notice. This is why his career was so up and down. He wasn't a professional. But when he was motivated his talent out shines Leonard. Both psychologically and skillwise. I want to say even athletically, Durans natural body balance was second to none. Short stocky limbs and a wide frame, but still lean and athletic to move fast. He was built for punching.

the reason why I bring it up is you making excuses for Duran ....the fact are they had 3 head to heads and Leonard proved his superiority when he used his natural advantages over Duran ......Duran gets to many passes in my opinion....he was beaten by 3 of the 4 kings and if you add Benitez to the mix that makes it even more ....he quit which destroyed his image and aura and he made excuses about stomach cramps...the reason why you chose to ignore the 3rd fight because it’s doesn’t fit your agenda plain and simple.....stop making excuses for him...he lost 16 times for Christ sake ....quit because he couldn’t pin leonard down .....lost to Kirkland laing , struggled with Jimmy batten , Robbie sims haglers half brother beat him....after beating Barkley he cried out for the rubber match against leonard ....leonard said ok and beat him in every round so stop making excuses.
as I said Duran gets to many passes as out of his 4 biggest opponents he beat one who then avenged him the rematch and lost to all the others....Duran kryptonite was boxers and movers and that was proven when he was beaten by Leonard , Benitez and even laing so when we talk about a complete fighter he wasn’t unfortunately....where is Leonard beat all types and that was proven against common opponents.
I love Duran but he gets to many passes

[travestyny]

First of all, most people don't even know a 3rd Leonard Duran fight even exists. It was basically a sparring exhibition. Yes Durans famous win over Barkley, they underestimated him and styles make fights, you brawl with the best brawler of all time and have poor defense, you can't beat him even if you are twice his size. But make no mistake that was a tough fight for Duran. You act like he steam rolled Barkley and was in prime shape. He dug that one out on pure experience and trickery.

The fact that you are even bringing it up shows your lack of understanding at this point. That fight is insignificant. It's like bringing up the Holmes loss about Ali, or Tyson losing to McBride.

When Duran was at his absolute best he's better than Leonard. But being as talented and unique as Duran was, came a lot of vices. The same things that made him great also destroyed him. Not preparing for oponents because he had no fear of them at all, Durans the type of guy that would walk into a world title fight on 1 week notice. This is why his career was so up and down. He wasn't a professional. But when he was motivated his talent out shines Leonard. Both psychologically and skillwise. I want to say even athletically, Durans natural body balance was second to none. Short stocky limbs and a wide frame, but still lean and athletic to move fast. He was built for punching.

But isn't coming into a fight fully prepared a requirement of the fighter? That includes not only coming into the fight mentally prepared, but also, physically prepared.

Maybe Duran wasn't at his best during the rematches, but then shouldn't it be acknowledged that Leonard wasn't "at his best" in the first fight being that at his best would be utilizing the game plan that gives him the best chance to win. It's not Duran's fault that Leonard chose a game plan that wasn't most conducive to him winning. Duran got in Leonard's head, and Leonard came into the fight not mentally at his best and fought the wrong fight. Also, not Leonard's fault that success went to Duran's head and he chose to party instead of prepare.

I just see them both to be excuses and feel the guys should simply get full credit for the fights they fought. Coming into the fight mentally and physically prepared is still what makes the fighters who they are. I don't think any excuses should be allowed for either. Just my 2 cents.

[The plunger man]

Furthermore Leonard-Duran III . . .

Before I continue let me say I am not one of those poster that believes there is ever a wrong and right in these discussions - I don't ask challenging questions trying to back you into a corner or declare victory, scream my facts and proof are better than yours. Etc. I envision this as a few guys sharing some pints in a pub mouthing off about the fight game. It should be fun. I would prefer to avoid adversarial discussions.

Furthermore Lronard-Duran III is a great example of my Leonard complaint.

Conventional wisdom has it that Duran just found another way to quit. But what I saw was Duran trying to make it a fight for six rounds and Leonard repeating his Hagler performance. Duran finally stopped following him around and stood flat footed in front of Leonard and waited.

If a fighter ever stopped and stood in front of Willie Pep he would have had the guy's lunch. But Leonard's feet were nailed to the canvas, he wouldn't move forward. Duran exposed that Leonard was no longer a fighter, just a boxer.

He was in the beginning both but by the end he wasn't.

Leonard was one of the all time great boxers and as I said before we all knew he could outbox anyone, but in the end he came up short as a fighter.

Willie Pep was a great boxer as well and could out box everyone in his day, but if Duran ever tried to call him out, the way he did Leonard, Pep would have jumped him.

so the bottom line your saying is leonard outboxed him and what’s the sport called ? So when 2 styles clashed Leonard came out on top is the bottom line......3 fights and Leonard won 2 of them comfortably.......and yiu trying to say Leonard never gutted it out is wrong plain and simple....he just used his best style for winning which at the end of the day that is what matters......you fight to your advantages not to the other fighters....do you realise how ridiculous you sound lol

[The plunger man]

Maybe Duran quit becuse he realized the man in front of him never intended to fight him just box and clown - had it gone on it would have turned out just like the Hagler fight.

We all knew going in that Leonard could out box both men but we wanted to see if he beat them in a prize fight. Guess we'll never know.

Seriously Duran quit becuse he knew he could never out box Leonard and he knew Leonard had no intention of fighting him.

The game is tarnished by 'points'

it was Duran job of making Leonard fight and cutting the ring off and he wasn’t able to that.....the first fight was razor thin with leoanrd actually dominating the last 3 rounds so let’s not make this out to be a walk in the park for Duran.......The 2nd fight leonard was pulling away and was landing some power shots on Duran especially to his midsection and Duran knew the writing was on the wall and he turned tail........obviously your a old school lover so it’s ok for boxer to just throw his arms in the air and turn his back ? How many fighters have down that in the past ? Did Dempsey do that against Tunney or lamotta against Robinson ? Boxing is the sweet science and Leonard was probably top 2 in history doing that.
again stop making excuses if you win on points you win plain and simple......it might not suit your agenda but it is what it is

[QueensburyRules]

I love Duran but he gets to many passes

- -We know what would happened to Leonard had he 40 more fights, so thanks for the reminder. Took a near fatal auto accident to retire Duran for good, not Camacho who never came close to KOing Duran when they fought.

[The plunger man]

But isn't coming into a fight fully prepared a requirement of the fighter? That includes not only coming into the fight mentally prepared, but also, physically prepared.

Maybe Duran wasn't at his best during the rematches, but then shouldn't it be acknowledged that Leonard wasn't "at his best" in the first fight being that at his best would be utilizing the game plan that gives him the best chance to win. It's not Duran's fault that Leonard chose a game plan that wasn't most conducive to him winning. Duran got in Leonard's head, and Leonard came into the fight not mentally at his best and fought the wrong fight. Also, not Leonard's fault that success went to Duran's head and he chose to party instead of prepare.

I just see them both to be excuses and feel the guys should simply get full credit for the fights they fought. Coming into the fight mentally and physically prepared is still what makes the fighters who they are. I don't think any excuses should be allowed for either. Just my 2 cents.

your 100% right and there is no excuses but when it’s comes down to it leonard was able to adjust and change tactics and Duran wasn’t ....this guy trying to say Duran was naturally better well if he was he would have won the rematch and the rubber match but he didn’t and love Duran and what he stood for....but facts are facts

[HOUDINI563]

Duran came into fight one with his will and determination to win set at an incredibly high level. Nothing was going to stop him from winning. His energy level was off the charts. I don’t think any athlete can get up that highly with back to back rematches. The Duran who faced Leonard in fight two was a step or two behind that of what we saw in fight one. Fight one illustrated an ATG boxing performance by Duran at an extreme high level.

Its no secret that clever boxing would be the way to beat a fighter such as Duran. Leonard adopted a strategy of doing all he could not to engage in fight 2. He clearly was winning and frustrating Duran in the process but this was no ATG performance. Just a great boxer staying at distance at all costs.

Thus the only ATG performance of either fighter was in fight one with Duran exhibiting everything from the Fitzsimmons shift to Dempseys bobbing and weaving/ countering. I watched this bout live and it was a breathtaking performance unlike anything I’ve seen before or since at any weight.