Tom O'Rourke: James J. Jeffries was Greatly Overrated. Agree or Disagree?

[travestyny]

Typical Irish pub lol. "Welcome to O'sheas what can I get for you" "A scotch with a punch in the face chaser please."

!!!!

[Willie Pep 229]

Muldoon had history with Sullivan, he had whipped him into shape for several fights... Muldoon was a physical specimen and wrestler. His job was to be that guy who grabbed Sullivan and escorted him out the pub lol.

That's where the falling out came from - Sullivan just didn't want to train that hard anymore and he brushed off (foolishly) Muldoon and it cost him.

Even before the Corbett fight the press was calling him soft. He would no longer listen to Muldoon and Muldoon started bad mouthing him.

[Willie Pep 229]

Difference is DeForest and Dempsey were always on good terms. And no reason for him to completely make up a story about bicycle tape when he could just talk up his training methods. I don't think Delaney and Jeff were on good terms in the end...BUT....O'Rourke says Delaney made this statement to him "several years" before the Johnson match.

Didn't see anywhere that Delaney said anything propping himself up in that statement. Not sure what you have a thorn in your ass over.


You should be praising Muldoon. Wasn't he the only one that wanted to keep Dempsey from Wills?

I could be mistaken but wasn't Muldoon chair of the NYSAC in 1922 when they threatened to strip Dempsey's title if he didn't fight Wills?

I know he is on record as a supporter of the color line - but he (like Dempsey) did some verbal flip-flopping. Think money I always say.

[billeau2]

That's where the falling out came from - Sullivan just didn't want to train that hard anymore and he brushed off (foolishly) Muldoon and it cost him.

Even before the Corbett fight the press was calling him soft. He would no longer listen to Muldoon and Muldoon started bad mouthing him.

Yes. How dare Muldoon make sure Sullivan took care of himself while preparing to fight, the nerve! Given Sullivan's disposition, as a drunk, Muldoon probably did not have to look hard for material.

[Willie Pep 229]

Difference is DeForest and Dempsey were always on good terms. And no reason for him to completely make up a story about bicycle tape when he could just talk up his training methods. I don't think Delaney and Jeff were on good terms in the end...BUT....O'Rourke says Delaney made this statement to him "several years" before the Johnson match.

Didn't see anywhere that Delaney said anything propping himself up in that statement. Not sure what you have a thorn in your ass over.


You should be praising Muldoon. Wasn't he the only one that wanted to keep Dempsey from Wills?

Re Deforest: he doesn't need to be angry at Dempsey to over state his own importance - to hear Dundee tell it, Ali wouldn't have answered the bell for the infamous fifth round if it wasn't for him. But watch the video and you see that isn't the case, Dundee is running around the ring yelling at the ref and Ali gets himself ready to fight. If I post a Dundee memoir where he claims Ali wanted to quit would you take it at face value? Dundee loved Ali and Ali loved Dundee but Dundee never hesitated to amplify his own importance to Ali.

[travestyny]

I could be mistaken but wasn't Muldoon chair of the NYSAC in 1922 when they threatened to strip Dempsey's title if he didn't fight Wills?

I know he is on record as a supporter of the color line - but he (like Dempsey) did some verbal flip-flopping. Think money I always say.

Remember that site that a few posters love to go to over Wills-Dempsey (the one that glances over the contract).

It stated this:

On June 11, 1922, Dempsey and Wills put pens to contracts. But the powerful New York Commissioner William Muldoon did not want the fight to take place in New York. To complicate matters further, Muldoon and promoter Tex Rickard clashed over, of all things, ticket prices. Muldoon wanted 40,000 tickets fixed at $2.00 for the “working people.” Rickard refused. In retaliation, Muldoon blocked the Dempsey-Wills fight from taking place in New York, even threatening to halt all heavyweight fights until prices came down. Frustrated, Rickard traveled to several states—even north to Montreal—to find a welcoming venue. None wanted the fight or had the money to host the event. When the contract deadline ran out, Wills sued. From then until 1926, as the legal proceedings dragged on, a potential Dempsey-Wills fight was often in the news as either under consideration, being planned, or “scheduled for next year,” but never became a done deal.

I always thought Muldoon was a part of an inside scheme with Dempsey's people to not get this fight on, but maybe that's just me. I do know that later Muldoon was stripped of his chairmanship because of his opposition to the fight.

[travestyny]

Re Deforest: he doesn't need to be angry at Dempsey to over state his own importance - to hear Dundee tell it, Ali wouldn't have answered the bell for the infamous fifth round if it wasn't for him. But watch the video and you see that isn't the case, Dundee is running around the ring yelling at the ref and Ali gets himself ready to fight. If I post a Dundee memoir where he claims Ali wanted to quit would you take it at face value? Dundee loved Ali and Ali loved Dundee but Dundee never hesitated to amplify his own importance to Ali.

DeForest never said anything similar. The only thing he said was the rumors about aluminum (and later plaster) were ridiculous. That he was the one who wrapped his hands, and told what he used. Since he was the man who wrapped his hands, wouldn't he be the rightful one to comment, or should he stay silent? Dempsey never denied it once, did he? He denied the plaster story, didn't he? To default to "he's lying to make himself important" just seems like another "Dempsey could do no wrong" defense that I liken to "the promoters were amateurs and so Dempsey was within his right to break the contract." These defenses with no inkling of proof are just dull already, to be frank.

[Willie Pep 229]

Remember that site that a few posters love to go to over Wills-Dempsey (the one that glances over the contract).

It stated this:



I always thought Muldoon was a part of an inside scheme with Dempsey's people to not get this fight on, but maybe that's just me. I do know that later Muldoon was stripped of his chairmanship because of his opposition to the fight.

Ok interesting. Off the top of my head I can't come up with a name but a city manager with control over the Polo Grounds went on record (in 1922) that there would be no mixed fights at the Grounds. A week or two later someone higher up over ruled the guy and announced the Grounds would be available for Dempsey-Wills fight should one be made.

Like I said I could be wrong about Muldoon but I am pretty sure he was Chair when they threatened Dempsey - but I also remember him making noise against mixed fights.

I suspect the issue was always very complicated.

[travestyny]

Ok interesting. Off the top of my head I can't come up with a name but a city manager with control over the Polo Grounds went on record (in 1922) that there would be no mixed fights at the Grounds. A week or two later someone higher up over ruled the guy and announced the Grounds would be available for Dempsey-Wills fight should one be made.

Like I said I could be wrong about Muldoon but I am pretty sure he was Chair when they threatened Dempsey - but I also remember him making noise against mixed fights.

I suspect the issue was always very complicated.

I think he did claim to want the fight in 1922, but I think it was to cover up all his extra workings to not have the fight. He didn't want that fight to happen. Never did. Just wanted to pretend he did. That's my opinion of his early stance. Later, it was blatantly obvious when the other 2 wanted it and they were able to remove him as chairman.

[Willie Pep 229]

I think he did claim to want the fight in 1922, but I think it was to cover up all his extra workings to not have the fight. He didn't want that fight to happen. Never did. Just wanted to pretend he did. That's my opinion of his early stance. Later, it was blatantly obvious when the other 2 wanted it and they were able to remove him as chairman.

Not an unreasonable analysis - it goes with I always felt, that the NYSAC was just another arm of Tammany and Tammany wanted the fight and they wanted it in New York. - That once he started making anti-mixed fight noise they would squeeze him out makes sense. I do definitely remember him making anti-mixed fight statements but don t know the time frame regarding tenure or removal. I remember me thinking that he was contradicting himself because he was part of the board that threatened Dempsey and then there he was denouncing the fight. Maybe he was just blowing smoke and fighting against it behind the scene. Again not an unreasonable conclusion to draw. I need to look back at it again.

I always agreed with you that if Kearns wanted the fight New York would have figured out how to make it happen. But I have already said a dozen times why I believe Kearns didn't want the fight.

And since I once again hi-jacked the thread and made it about Dempsey let me just say - good! - I really don't like the OP - it would be easy to post a half dozen sources calling Jefferies a courageous man.

To my mind, as sources, Delaney + Brady + Muldoon = Atlas + King + Sulaiman. Not someone I would quote about a fighter's character.

P.S. in regards to the ticket price dispute two things. I believe it was a New York law/ordnance, one of the types of bones Tammany would throw back to its constituency, guaranteed cheap seats. Second, it wasn't a deal breaker because Rickard swallowed it for the Firpo fight. A bigger crowd than the Carpentier fight ( 75K vs 90K) yet garnered less revenue ( I think.) It always made me wonder why he ( Rickard) didn't use Boyles Thirty Ac. in New Jersey for the fight. He staged Wills-Firpo there a year later.