Tom O'Rourke: James J. Jeffries was Greatly Overrated. Agree or Disagree?

[travestyny]

This is not meant to bash Mr. Jeffries. I have no plans of becoming what Dr. Z is to Jack Johnson. However, I recently ran into an article about Jim that is highly critical of him. Some pretty big names here: Muldoon, Corbett, Brady, Delaney, and probably the most critical is Tom O'Rourke.

First of all, we know Jim decided to draw the color-line after becoming champion (He did fight Hank Griffin in what I believe was a non-title money grab before his scheduled championship fight with Ruhlin. He wound up losing the $100 bet that he could knock out Griffin (described as looking like a "famine survivor") within 4 rounds. But at some point he decided that fighting the likes of McVey and Johnson wouldn't do for him.

San Francisco Call, Nov 5, 1903

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His old trainer, Delaney, claimed that Jeffries was always afraid of Johnson and that Jeffries had repeatedly turned down huge offers to fight him in the past. He claims to be sure that fear was the motivating factor.

If what William A. Brady says is true, it might be because Jim was "mortally afraid of defeat" and wanted to retire as champion. He managed Jeffries for his fight with Fitzsimmons and a year before the Johnson fight said Jeffries retired after beating Munroe solely because of a constant fear of defeat.

Jeffries always worried about his fights and he was mortally afraid of being beaten. He told me many times that he wanted to retire before defeat might come his way. If he fights Johnson, Jeff will worry a whole lot!

That fear was probably what led to Jeff's "nervous prostration" when he entered the ring with Johnson, according to Jim Corbett.

William Muldoon had this to say:

Jeffries was frightened by the importance of his task [against Johnson]. He made two serious errors. First he should not have consented to make the match with Johnson and again he should not have trained himself. Physically Jeffries was the negro's superior, but otherwise he was a pitiful object.

But of all these quotations, the one that struck me the most was this from Tom O'Rourke:

The Evening Start -- July 13th, 1910:

He points to key matchup advantages regarding Jeffries' resume and basically co-signs that Jeffries couldn't have beaten a fighter his own size who could fight better than average, and once again, Jeffries fighting spirit is questioned. Even labeled as potentially a quitter.


Do you guys think this view holds any merit? With drawing the color-line after having previously fought black fighters, turning down huge paydays, reportedly being mortally afraid to lose, reportedly lacking a fighting spirit, and avoiding skilled fighters his own size, was Jeffries perhaps overrated?

[travestyny]

By the way, I do have to admit that I did find this article a bit distasteful being that it was right after Jeffries loss to Johnson. Way to kick a man when he's down. However, being that there are some hall of fame names that chimed in, I was wondering what you guys think.

[Ben Bolt]

This is not meant to bash Mr. Jeffries.

He has his place in boxing history.
I do appreciate these autentic clips of yesterday. What I often search for myself, the comments at the time the events actually occured.

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[Willie Pep 229]

Here we have it again - another trainer sharing with us how his guy wouldn't have become champion without him being there.

God these trainers with their bicycle tape and motivational speeches are just plain irreplaceable.

Imagine judging a fighter 30 years from now based on Teddy Atlas' evaluation.

BTW does anyone know if William Brady was included in the Reno fight with Johnson or was he left out of the big money? I wonder.

I wonder also if 50 years from now I was to post three articles stating that Triple G beat Canelo in their first fight would that make it a historical fact?

Oh, and Muldoon, here's a great guy who kept his name in that paper by calling John L Sullivan a bum when he wouldn't hire him as trainer for the Corbett fght, and then went on to become Tammany Hall's NYSAC b itch. Another great source.

So what have we got here is one more self aggrandizing trainer, a jilted manager, and a Tammanny Hall b ***** all calling a former HW Champion of the world a COWARD!

You know I once called a bunch of boxing promoters out of Chicago ( in 1927 no less) a bunch of amateurs and gangsters and I got lectured for being disrespectful.

I never once called a former champion a coward.

[kafkod]

His old trainer, Delaney, claimed that Jeffries was always afraid of Johnson and that Jeffries had repeatedly turned down huge offers to fight him in the past. He claims to be sure that fear was the motivating factor.

Makes me wonder why he came out of retirement to fight him.

[travestyny]

Here we have it again - another trainer sharing with us how his guy wouldn't have become champion without him being there.

God these trainers with their bicycle tape and motivational speeches are just plain irreplaceable.

Imagine judging a fighter 30 years from now based on Teddy Atlas' evaluation.

BTW does anyone know if William Brady was included in the Reno fight with Johnson or was he left out of the big money? I wonder.

I wonder also if 50 years from now I was to post three articles stating that Triple G beat Canelo in their first fight would that make it a historical fact?

Oh, and Muldoon, here's a great guy who kept his name in that paper by calling John L Sullivan a bum when he wouldn't hire him as trainer for the Corbett fght, and then went on to become Tammany Hall's NYSAC b itch. Another great source.

So what have we got here is one more self aggrandizing trainer, a jilted manager, and a Tammanny Hall b ***** all calling a former HW Champion of the world a COWARD!

You know I once called a bunch of boxing promoters out of Chicago ( in 1927 no less) a bunch of amateurs and gangsters and I got lectured for being disrespectful.

I never once called a former champion a coward.

Difference is DeForest and Dempsey were always on good terms. And no reason for him to completely make up a story about bicycle tape when he could just talk up his training methods. I don't think Delaney and Jeff were on good terms in the end...BUT....O'Rourke says Delaney made this statement to him "several years" before the Johnson match.

Didn't see anywhere that Delaney said anything propping himself up in that statement. Not sure what you have a thorn in your ass over.


You should be praising Muldoon. Wasn't he the only one that wanted to keep Dempsey from Wills?

[billeau2]

Difference is DeForest and Dempsey were always on good terms. And no reason for him to completely make up a story about bicycle tape when he could just talk up his training methods. I don't think Delaney and Jeff were on good terms in the end...BUT....O'Rourke says Delaney made this statement to him "several years" before the Johnson match.

Didn't see anywhere that Delaney said anything propping himself up in that statement. Not sure what you have a thorn in your ass over.


You should be praising Muldoon. Wasn't he the only one that wanted to keep Dempsey from Wills?

Muldoon had history with Sullivan, he had whipped him into shape for several fights... Muldoon was a physical specimen and wrestler. His job was to be that guy who grabbed Sullivan and escorted him out the pub lol.

[travestyny]

Muldoon had history with Sullivan, he had whipped him into shape for several fights... Muldoon was a physical specimen and wrestler. His job was to be that guy who grabbed Sullivan and escorted him out the pub lol.

lol. Just imagine being at a bar with those two around. Makes me think of some of the tales the WWE guys tell about their times out on the town!

[billeau2]

By the way, I do have to admit that I did find this article a bit distasteful being that it was right after Jeffries loss to Johnson. Way to kick a man when he's down. However, being that there are some hall of fame names that chimed in, I was wondering what you guys think.

Jeffries was an incredible athlete. He apparently could run really fast, had incredible strength, etc. Up until around Marciano or so, Jeffries was often/maybe always a top ten ATG on pundit endorsed lists...

Putting the cart before the horse here but the reason he fought Johnson was Jack London talked him into it with the same type of rousing speech Milosevic gave to Serbians who had peacefully lived in multi ethnic communities with Bosnians, Croats, etc, just prior to getting these groups to start killing each other after decades of peace and good will... "White man's burden" said London... "Your race is counting on you in this time of need." And for whatever reason Jeffries bought it. NOW... Remember what a great athlete Jeffries was? apparently he had to shed over 100 pounds to face Johnson. An incredible task really.

So how good was Jeffries in the ring? When I think of Jeffries I remember training martial arts with this cop from Oakland. He was a scary guy, must have been 6 feet and 5 inches, or so, and around 240 pounds of ripcords. The guy was incredibly strong! He was brutal as a cop, used to tell stories, upsetting stories, and luckily he was gentle as a training partner because he was truly a killer. His body was like Jeffries, all muscle, just an explosive machine. I can imagine fighting such a naturally strong human being... and jeffries had technique by all accounts. As strong as Johnson, Sullivan and many of the other fighters were, Jeffries was an unnaturally strong human being, with useful strength. I just imagine he would have been a nightmare to face in his prime.

[billeau2]

lol. Just imagine being at a bar with those two around. Makes me think of some of the tales the WWE guys tell about their times out on the town!

Typical Irish pub lol. "Welcome to O'sheas what can I get for you" "A scotch with a punch in the face chaser please."