Fuel to the fire. Johnson admits Langford did in fact for him!

[Willie Pep 229]

I actually have no bias regarding whether JJ hit the canvas or not. Really, I have no decided opinion going in, but from reading everything you guys have posted ( and trying to take into account the conflicting narratives, sometimes from the same source) I think:

Sometime early in the fight JJ slipped to the canvas, Sam threw a punch that may or maynot have assisted the slip. The ref saw fit not to call it a knockdown.

For what it is worth this nararive makes it possible to accept all the sources as trying to tell a version, best to their memory, of the truth. You don t need to call anybody a liar.

But then again maybe it didn't happen that way.

In support of T's argument about a knock down likely being reported and my 'slip' theory I point to Corbett-Sullivan.

No American newspaper ever made mention of this, but on BoxRec one poster produced a British source that mentioned that Sullivan caught Corbett with a body shot and Corbett went down to one knee, but the ref waved it off as a slip.

The official records calls no KDs for Sullivan and not a single American newspaper sought fit to mention the event.

But from trying to put together what you guys have posted I think JJ slipped and there was enough doubt for Langford fans to call it a KD.

But like I said, that probably didn't happen either.

[GhostofDempsey]

Do you want to actually have a conversation about this, or do you want to keep ducking?


I've proven that Jack Johnson agreed to fight Joe Jennette for the title, right? Do you still deny this? If so, let's discuss and I will show you the proof. But you seem to want to run from the facts.


You claim nat Fleischer witnessed Dempsey's hands being wrapped. I've already shown you that Nat Fleischer also repeated exactly what Jimmy Deforest stated. That he wrapped his hands with something similar to bicycle tape. I even gave you the page from the book, so it's silly for you to bring up Fleischer. And you are well aware that the tape used hardens once the gloves were placed over them, so of course looking at the tape means nothing. This is just your usual tactic trying to be deceitful about what the method used was. It was stated not only by Deforest, but stated in the article about McCoy, who also used the same type of tape. And who wrapped his hands? Jimmy Deforest. What a coincidence.


But you keep ducking. When you grow some balls, feel free to let me know...because I've been with all the evidence and all you do is duck.


By the way....you want to talk about cracking the case? How many boxing historians believe exactly what I just stated? Do you want a list of believers? I gave it to you before and I can provide it again. I bet you duck me tho.



Your silence on these issues speaks volumes. You can quote me about some other bs around the forum, but when it comes to answering simple questions I ask about these topic, you suddenly have no fingers to type with. Your refusal to answer simple questions proves that even you know you have no comeback for the information I provide. I've been undressing you and publicly flogging you over these issues for years and you still haven't grown a pair. And I'm pretty damn sure that no one believes you. Dr. Z is already on record that the Johnson agreed to fight Jennette for the championship, I believe. Even Houdini came around on the tape, and Willie Pep I'm pretty sure said Dempsey was known to do funny things with his wraps. You're on an island alone.

Most of your sources are anonymous news articles from 100 years ago. Even with sources that are valid, it's difficult to prove or disprove something that happened a century ago. But you cannot accept that. You're on a one-man crusade to prove some conspiracy theory about loaded wraps. No one is ducking anything. Us normal folks just have a saturation point where we have discussed it in circles because you constantly want to either move the goal post or you just ignore other people's sources. You won't accept anything else. I'm not alone on this, you just interpret other people's unwillingness to drag this out as agreeing with you. You're a hopeless psychotic who argues with strangers on Christmas Day.

Fleischer was printing a story as it was told to him by DeForest. This is what you are hinging your entire argument upon. You completely dismiss firsthand accounts of Willard's own cornerman who was present while Dempsey's hands were wrapped. He entered the ring with him too. DeForest also wrote an article in 1923 and makes no mention of bicycle tape or any other tape different from what was normally used in the day.

You can quote several historians and writers who may share an opinion of loaded wraps and I can quote several who don't believe he did. Neither you or I will prove or disprove it definitively. This is about your obsessive need to be right, to win and always have the last say. It's always been about that. This topic has been done to death for years now, every since I got onto this site in 2017. You bring it up in almost every Dempsey or non-Dempsey thread. Get some help.

You think you have proof that Johnson gave Jeannette a fair title shot, even though it was listed as an exhibition. Remember, Jack also claimed his fight with Ketchel was only an exhibition, which also turned out to be false. Johnson was notorious for setting unreasonable purse demands as I quoted from the Langford book you claim to have read. He admits he drew the color line yet you insist he only meant it as a joke. As if you have insight into his true intentions. The facts are the facts, none of those fighters got a shot at Johnson for the title once he was champion. He made one exception from the color line, Battling Jim Johnson, who turned out to be a cherry-pick gone horribly wrong.

[travestyny]

Most of your sources are anonymous news articles from 100 years ago. Even with sources that are valid, it's difficult to prove or disprove something that happened a century ago. But you cannot accept that. You're on a one-man crusade to prove some conspiracy theory about loaded wraps. No one is ducking anything. Us normal folks just have a saturation point where we have discussed it in circles because you constantly want to either move the goal post or you just ignore other people's sources. You won't accept anything else. I'm not alone on this, you just interpret other people's unwillingness to drag this out as agreeing with you. You're a hopeless psychotic who argues with strangers on Christmas Day.

Fleischer was printing a story as it was told to him by DeForest. This is what you are hinging your entire argument upon. You completely dismiss firsthand accounts of Willard's own cornerman who was present while Dempsey's hands were wrapped. He entered the ring with him too. DeForest also wrote an article in 1923 and makes no mention of bicycle tape or any other tape different from what was normally used in the day.

You can quote several historians and writers who may share an opinion of loaded wraps and I can quote several who don't believe he did. Neither you or I will prove or disprove it definitively. This is about your obsessive need to be right, to win and always have the last say. It's always been about that. This topic has been done to death for years now, every since I got onto this site in 2017. You bring it up in almost every Dempsey or non-Dempsey thread. Get some help.

You think you have proof that Johnson gave Jeannette a fair title shot, even though it was listed as an exhibition. Remember, Jack also claimed his fight with Ketchel was only an exhibition, which also turned out to be false. Johnson was notorious for setting unreasonable purse demands as I quoted from the Langford book you claim to have read. He admits he drew the color line yet you insist he only meant it as a joke. As if you have insight into his true intentions. The facts are the facts, none of those fighters got a shot at Johnson for the title once he was champion. He made one exception from the color line, Battling Jim Johnson, who turned out to be a cherry-pick gone horribly wrong.

The only thing you can do to try to avoid answering questions is go with the childish insults. Give it up already.

What source have I ignored regarding the wraps? Please show me! All references to his wraps was about plaster, not about what Deforest said. No historian has ever questioned the Deforest tale as far as I know. If so, post it up and let's take a look! Seriously. I want to see it.

You are being deceitful. What did the quotation say? That the tape hardens once the gloves are put on, right? So why are you still trying to argue that looking at the tape means something? It makes no sense. We know he looked at his bandages. He saw tape. He obviously wasn't aware that it would harden.

“When I handled Kid McCoy I used to bandage his hands with a certain kind of adhesive tape. As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment. I wound Dempsey's hands with the same kind of bandages, which Willard inspected. The story that Dempsey wore aluminum pads over his knuckles is a lie. His bandages became hardened, no doubt, and that was why he cut Willard's face to ribbons.”

So what's your comeback for that?


And what source have I ignored regarding the proposed Jennette fight not being for the title? Post the source. I would love to see that, too. Please don't duck this. I want to see your sources that say the Jennette proposed match was not to be for the title.

My proof has nothing to do with Johnson. There were to be 3 championship fights on that card. I have a statement from one of the champions whose fight went on as planned who stated plainly that the fight was indeed for the championship. Your response?

As for the Langford book, that was not what was stated about the 1910 incident. If that's what you are referring to, then you are flat out lying. I've already posted the exact pages and you still seem to be trying to lie. The conclusion that was drawn was Sam Langford and his manager were either unable or unwilling to put up the agreed to amount. Agreed to. As in they met and came to an agreement. Your thoughts on that?

QdiF3c.png

Show me where in the book it says that Jack Johnson was being unreasonable regarding this issue.

And you are still going with this false narrative that he stated he would draw the color-line. You claim I can't decide for him, but he himself stated that he meant that as a joke. Not only that, the reporters all laughed when he said it because it was obviously a joke. Why do you think he said, "Like some actors" and all the reporters laughed. He was doing vaudeville.

The Detroit Times (Dec. 28th, 1908) - Since you guys don't like when I post the article....which you can find posted in one of the other threads I might add.

Johnson was engaged today for a five weeks run on the vaudeville stage......Johnson said laughingly today that his threat to "draw the color-line" was simply a joke.

Talk about ignoring all sources. Holy smokes. You ignore every damn thing I've provided that proves every damn thing you've said in this paragraph is false, and then you duck.

How did the Jim Johnson fight go horribly wrong besides him breaking his arm? That makes no sense. And no, they didn't get a shot at his title. But yes, he agreed to fight them all at one point or another and I can prove it. You don't deny this, do you?




But please, show me all the sources that say Jimmy DeForest was lying, and all the sources that say the proposed Johnson / Jennette fight wasn't to be for the title. You say I ignore your sources, so now is a great time for you to show them and then everyone reading can decide for themselves if I am ducking them or processing them unreasonably. Please don't duck this. Show me!

I'm calling you and your sources out. Post them!

[Willie Pep 229]

How about the theory that Dempsey was having his hand wrapped in the modern style
( which means your hands become like a wrapped piston ) and old School Willard was su****ious of what was developing and demanded his people watch the wrappings. In the end Willard accepted the wrappings and fought.

Tunney was (at no surprise) concerned, by 1926 Dempsey's loaded gloves ( thanks to a disgruntled Kearns) was already a legend.

But arguing that becuse a fighter doubts (Tunney) another is not proof that Dempsey loaded his gloves. They all mistrusted their opponents.

Has any fighter ever trusted his opponent?

As far as Deforest goes, whether he was helping or bashing Dempsey is irrelevant.

His intentions are his to know, but whatever his motive, he bashed Dempsey with his bicycle tape theory and in the end the narrative, as always with these guys, made him oh so important to the victory. That's the self a aggrandizing I am saying is common to all managers/promoters/trainers.

They are all terrible sources of information.

[GhostofDempsey]

The only thing you can do to try to avoid answering questions is go with the childish insults. Give it up already.

What source have I ignored regarding the wraps? Please show me! All references to his wraps was about plaster, not about what Deforest said. No historian has ever questioned the Deforest tale as far as I know. If so, post it up and let's take a look! Seriously. I want to see it.

You are being deceitful. What did the quotation say? That the tape hardens once the gloves are put on, right? So why are you still trying to argue that looking at the tape means something? It makes no sense. We know he looked at his bandages. He saw tape. He obviously wasn't aware that it would harden.



So what's your comeback for that?


And what source have I ignored regarding the proposed Jennette fight not being for the title? Post the source. I would love to see that, too. Please don't duck this. I want to see your sources that say the Jennette proposed match was not to be for the title.

My proof has nothing to do with Johnson. There were to be 3 championship fights on that card. I have a statement from one of the champions whose fight went on as planned who stated plainly that the fight was indeed for the championship. Your response?

As for the Langford book, that was not what was stated about the 1910 incident. If that's what you are referring to, then you are flat out lying. I've already posted the exact pages and you still seem to be trying to lie. The conclusion that was drawn was Sam Langford and his manager were either unable or unwilling to put up the agreed to amount. Agreed to. As in they met and came to an agreement. Your thoughts on that?

QdiF3c.png

Show me where in the book it says that Jack Johnson was being unreasonable regarding this issue.

And you are still going with this false narrative that he stated he would draw the color-line. You claim I can't decide for him, but he himself stated that he meant that as a joke. Not only that, the reporters all laughed when he said it because it was obviously a joke. Why do you think he said, "Like some actors" and all the reporters laughed. He was doing vaudeville.

The Detroit Times (Dec. 28th, 1908) - Since you guys don't like when I post the article....which you can find posted in one of the other threads I might add.



Talk about ignoring all sources. Holy smokes. You ignore every damn thing I've provided that proves every damn thing you've said in this paragraph is false, and then you duck.

How did the Jim Johnson fight go horribly wrong besides him breaking his arm? That makes no sense. And no, they didn't get a shot at his title. But yes, he agreed to fight them all at one point or another and I can prove it. You don't deny this, do you?




But please, show me all the sources that say Jimmy DeForest was lying, and all the sources that say the proposed Johnson / Jennette fight wasn't to be for the title. You say I ignore your sources, so now is a great time for you to show them and then everyone reading can decide for themselves if I am ducking them or processing them unreasonably. Please don't duck this. Show me!

I'm calling you and your sources out. Post them!

Childish insults? You should be talking...I an post hundreds of your childish taunts and insults. Don't even start with that. Not unless you want me to post the Pac/Floyd investigation thread where you start on page 301 and argue all the way to page 778...from Feb 2016 to Aug 2018!!! And then again just recently this month. The taunts, the memes, the .gifs, and language...people just don't want to get into another Vietnam with you on every damn thread!

You insist on seeing some sort of proof that someone was lying. You need to get off of the lying angle. You're arguing in the court of opinion!

Boxing writer Steve Compton isn't even a Dempsey guy, but he didn't believe DeForest's claim that he used special tape. Other's, including Willie, suggest that DeForest may have secretly held some animosity as he was replaced by Gus Wilson as head trainer in the Tunney rematch. DeForest never mentions bicycle tape in a 1923 article he wrote himself. He insisted that any tampering or foreign substance used on Dempsey's wraps would take away his greatest asset, his hand-speed. From Compton himself:

It was actually not uncommon during this era for fighters to wrap their hands in hard bicycle tape (my book on Greb had a photo of Joe Borrell, who was known as a puncher, with just these wrappings prior to fighting Greb) but I have several photos of Dempsey just prior to the fight with Willard and before his gloves were slipped on. Not only are his hands not coated in plaster but his wraps are not bicycle tape. Indeed Willard crosses the ring and shakes hands with Dempsey. You would think he would have noticed something then and drawn attention to it. Also, Willard's cornerman is in Dempsey's corner when the gloves are put on and later stated that the stories of loaded gloves were baloney.

As for Dempsey, its just another one of those myths that has refused to die. I dont know why Jimmy DeForrest would have said that but its obvious from all of the evidence we have that Dempsey's gloves werent loaded.

Again you accuse me of lying. The Langford book which I quoted on another thread recently, quoted Johnson saying he would fight any man so long as he came up with $50K plus a $20K side bet. Knowing full well the other black fighters could not cover that sort of demand. So it went from $30k to $70K just as they were closing in on coming up with the $30K.

Get of the lying accusations. If you don't agree with someone that does not automatically make them (a) wrong or (b) liars. I'll take the word of Langford, Jeannette and McVey that they never got their title shots from Johnson, who himself said there was no money in fighting black fighters and no one would want to see it...which was not at all true. Langford, Jeannette, McVey were putting thousands of asses in seats when they fought one another and there was a demand for a fight with Johnson against one one of them.

[travestyny]

How about the theory that Dempsey was having his hand wrapped in the modern style
( which means your hands become like a wrapped piston ) and old School Willard was su****ious of what was developing and demanded his people watch the wrappings. In the end Willard accepted the wrappings and fought.

Tunney was (at no surprise) concerned, by 1926 Dempsey's loaded gloves ( thanks to a disgruntled Kearns) was already a legend.

But arguing that becuse a fighter doubts (Tunney) another is not proof that Dempsey loaded his gloves. They all mistrusted their opponents.

Has any fighter ever trusted his opponent?

As far as Deforest goes, whether he was helping or bashing Dempsey is irrelevant.

His intentions are his to know, but whatever his motive, he bashed Dempsey with his bicycle tape theory and in the end the narrative, as always with these guys, made him oh so important to the victory. That's the self a aggrandizing I am saying is common to all managers/promoters/trainers.

They are all terrible sources of information.

Willard made a HUGE stink about wraps before this fight. It was a big deal. He stated plainly that he wanted only gauze and just enough tape to keep it in place. Dempsey's hands looked like casts all the way down to if not past the knuckle.

I think you got DeForest all wrong. He wasn't bashing Dempsey. They remained good friends thereafter. He was simply stating the nature of the wraps since he was the man who wrapped his hands. When there was so much question about the wraps, why should he have been silent?

You yourself have stated that Dempsey's wraps gave him an advantage. Is it fair to take an advantage when your opponent is pleading that you not go that route? Maybe it was legal, but I would say unsportsmanlike, to say the least.


Here was your statement on it, by the way.

Thank you for posting the letters.

In regards to the 'loaded gloves' theory . . .

I think this was s good discussion and you brought some very interesting sources to the table.

I am of the mind, now, that it's up to the individual to decide if they want to call it -- loaded gloves -- a trick -- or merely superior wrappings.

I always felt that Dempsey's wrappings gave him an advantage at some level, now I am convinced of that.

Whether or not that advantage should be called "cheating" is in my opinion, under the circumstances of 1919, still open to individual interpretation.

I would like to add, we here on this forum, now have a better understanding of the issue than 95% of the boxing community. Good job T.
.

So...loaded gloves, a trick, or superior wrappings...that gave an advantage. I thought the motto is to enter the ring on an even playing field.



By the way, I do appreciate your kind words in that post.

[Willie Pep 229]

Willard made a HUGE stink about wraps before this fight. It was a big deal. He stated plainly that he wanted only gauze and just enough tape to keep it in place. Dempsey's hands looked like casts all the way down to if not past the knuckle.

I think you got DeForest all wrong. He wasn't bashing Dempsey. They remained good friends thereafter. He was simply stating the nature of the wraps since he was the man who wrapped his hands. When there was so much question about the wraps, why should he have been silent?

You yourself have stated that Dempsey's wraps gave him an advantage. Is it fair to take an advantage when your opponent is pleading that you not go that route? Maybe it was legal, but I would say unsportsmanlike, to say the least.


Here was your statement on it, by the way.




So...loaded gloves, a trick, or superior wrappings...that gave an advantage. I thought the motto is to enter the ring on an even playing field.



By the way, I do appreciate your kind words in that post.

I believe your first paragraph and last agree what I am saying. Willard was su****ious of how Dempsey's hands were being wrapped. Willard was use to being wrapped with a small amount of gause and Dempsey's wraps were quite modern. Re the picture I have posted before of Dempsey sitting in the ring corner before the Willard fight, with the world to see and photograph his wrappings. They look as though they could have been wrapped yesterday. And yes definitely an advantage.

Gloves wrere never meant to protect the opponent but were meant to protect the fighter's hand. But with today's wrapping the gloves have become (literally) a lethal weapon.

It is a paradox like the NFL - want to make football safer? Make face masks illegal.

Want to make fights safer - revert to 5 ounce glove with limited cloth wrappings.

The punches to the face hurt more but there would be no winging power punches to the head; precise targeting of the body and face would become mandatory unless one likes breaking his hand.

[travestyny]

Childish insults? You should be talking...I an post hundreds of your childish taunts and insults. Don't even start with that. Not unless you want me to post the Pac/Floyd investigation thread where you start on page 301 and argue all the way to page 778...from Feb 2016 to Aug 2018!!! And then again just recently this month. The taunts, the memes, the .gifs, and language...people just don't want to get into another Vietnam with you on every damn thread!

You insist on seeing some sort of proof that someone was lying. You need to get off of the lying angle. You're arguing in the court of opinion!

Boxing writer Steve Compton isn't even a Dempsey guy, but he didn't believe DeForest's claim that he used special tape. Other's, including Willie, suggest that DeForest may have secretly held some animosity as he was replaced by Gus Wilson as head trainer in the Tunney rematch. DeForest never mentions bicycle tape in a 1923 article he wrote himself. He insisted that any tampering or foreign substance used on Dempsey's wraps would take away his greatest asset, his hand-speed. From Compton himself:

It was actually not uncommon during this era for fighters to wrap their hands in hard bicycle tape (my book on Greb had a photo of Joe Borrell, who was known as a puncher, with just these wrappings prior to fighting Greb) but I have several photos of Dempsey just prior to the fight with Willard and before his gloves were slipped on. Not only are his hands not coated in plaster but his wraps are not bicycle tape. Indeed Willard crosses the ring and shakes hands with Dempsey. You would think he would have noticed something then and drawn attention to it. Also, Willard's cornerman is in Dempsey's corner when the gloves are put on and later stated that the stories of loaded gloves were baloney.

As for Dempsey, its just another one of those myths that has refused to die. I dont know why Jimmy DeForrest would have said that but its obvious from all of the evidence we have that Dempsey's gloves werent loaded.

Again you accuse me of lying. The Langford book which I quoted on another thread recently, quoted Johnson saying he would fight any man so long as he came up with $50K plus a $20K side bet. Knowing full well the other black fighters could not cover that sort of demand. So it went from $30k to $70K just as they were closing in on coming up with the $30K.

Get of the lying accusations. If you don't agree with someone that does not automatically make them (a) wrong or (b) liars. I'll take the word of Langford, Jeannette and McVey that they never got their title shots from Johnson, who himself said there was no money in fighting black fighters and no one would want to see it...which was not at all true. Langford, Jeannette, McVey were putting thousands of asses in seats when they fought one another and there was a demand for a fight with Johnson against one one of them.

Dude, you're going all the way back to 2016??? What I'm telling you is let's cut out the immature extracurricular bullshlt and have a normal conversation. Deal?


Ok. So your source that it wasn't bicycle tape is by Klompton looking at the pictures and stating that it wasn't bicycle tape?
Now tell me this. Kid McCoy's opponents couldn't look at the tape and tell that it was bicycle tape. So how was Klompton able to do this from looking at the picture? Does that make sense to you? It was tape. What should it have looked like? Wire?

But ok, I accept your single source. Now tell me if you will accept all of mine. I have much more than one.

Arthur Daley— Pulitzer Prize winner for reporting and commentary--outstanding coverage and commentary on the world of sports; The National Sportscasters and Sportswriters Association "Sportswriter of the Year.”

The mention of “aluminum pads” would seem to indicate that there must have been some su****ion even then of destructive foreign substances inside Dempsey's gloves. The discredited Kearns tells a discredited story with his plaster of paris. But the DeForest tale of “a certain kind of adhesive tape” sounds both plausible and logical.
https://www.nytimes.com/1964/02/09/s...the-times.html

Paul Beston—Author of The Boxing Kings: When American Heavyweights Ruled the Ring.

All the evidence points to a more mundane explanation: Dempsey wore handwraps wound with a tightening adhesive, likened to bicycle tape—more than sufficient to make his hands feel like rocks. The tape was not illegal at the time, and the testimony of multiple parties suggests that Willard’s people made no objection to it.
https://www.paulbeston.com/blog/the-...f-jack-dempsey

Paul Beston Again:

The punishment that Dempsey inflicted in Toledo—likely exaggerated as the years passed—can probably be explained by DeForest’s use of a hardening tape to wrap his hands. One observer compared it with bicycle tape, which would make Dempsey’s hands very hard indeed.

Were Dempsey’s gloves loaded in Toledo? Yes—but only in comparison with the softer wrappings that modern fighters wear. The foul-play accusations that surround the Willard fight make wonderful lore but poor history. These were different times.
https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=...20tape&f=false

Carlos Acevedo—Boxing Writers Association of America/Intenational Boxing Research Organization.

For years, those who pooh-poohed the Railroad Spike Theory and the Plaster of Paris Plot have ignored two simple details.

The first is the fact that Dempsey did wear “loaded gloves.” As Al Spink pointed out in*The Atlanta Constitution*only months after Dempsey annihilated Willard:….So bandaging knuckles has become an art among the boxers, and the trickiest glove men are adepts in putting on the wraps so as to make the glove as hard as the old Roman cestus, with which the ancient gladiators often killed each other.” Jimmy Deforest explained how Dempsey had achieved such carnage in so short a time. Is it possible that Willard actually inspected Dempsey’s hands before the tape hardened?
https://thecruelestsport.com/2015/06...willard-fight/

Randy Warren Roberts — “Nearly 40 years later, Roberts’s biography remains the best book written about Jack Dempsey, and it’s not even close.”

Jimmy Deforest, who taped Dempsey's hands, admitted that he used a hard adhesive tape, but that was perfectly legal. Regardless of how hard the tape was during the fight, Dempsey was champion.
https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=...%20was&f=false

Charles Samuel - "The Magnificent Rube: The Life and Gaudy Times of Tex Rickard." By the way, he received info from Ned Brown, who was in the dressing room.

When the Marines finally departed there was another delay while a fresh canvas was laid in the ring. Willard had heard that the canvas from his opponent's training-camp ring was being used and demanded at the last moment that another be substituted.

While this was being done, his handlers were watching Dempsey wind yards of heavy bicycle tape around and around his fists, without protesting.

Grantland Rice - Prizefighting: An American History

A provocative article by widely syndicated sportswriter Grantland Rice was more fodder for the notion that Tunney was a live underdog. Rice noted that Depsey had never had his hands wrapped by anyone but Kearns since graduating from the tank towns. It was Doc's custom to wrap Dempsey's hands with several yards of hard black bicycle tape over a thick cushion of gauze and cotton. For this bout, the fighters were required to enter the ring bare-fisted and their hands would be dressed with inspectors looking on. Bicycle tape was prohibited, forcing Dempsey to fight with far less bandaging than was his custom.

You are referring to a quotation from the New York Times on July 12, 1910, from what I can find in the book. I have absolutely no problem with this. I'm going to say that again so you let it sink in. I have absolutely no problem with it and I'm not ignoring it. If thats' what he said, then that's what he said. He didn't say it in reference to Langford. The very next line he's talking about fighting Al Kaufmann. I agree. He was not going to make that amount of money. I don't blame him for trying.

So now, what happened in September of 1910 when Jack Johnson and Sam Langford agreed that Sam's team would put up $20,000 for the match and Johnson would match it. What was the outcome? Can you blame Jack Johnson for Langford agreeing to terms and not being able to come through?

And no, they weren't closing in on $30,000 back then. They didn't get to $30,000 until the proposed Australia fights, which Johnson accepted. Right?



Go look how much the black heavyweights were fighting for. They were sharing $6000. The gate wasn't even that big for major battles between the top black heavyweights. Compare it to what Johnson did with Moran in France. At that time, it was believed that Sam Langford wasn't going to pull as much because he had just lost to Gunboat Smith. In fact, the promoters stated that the gate for his bout with jennette in France would be reduced by $10,000 due to his loss. Langford / Jennette pulled in a gate of $11,370. The gate for Jennette vs. Capentier pulled in $30,000. Johnson vs. Moran pulled in 30,000 people and $40,000. I'm not convinced that a match with Langford would pull more than a match with a white contender. But if anyone wants to help me come to an agreement about this by doing some research into how much was being made from these fights, I'm game for it.


Most importantly, I saw no source for the Jennette fight not being for the title. Again, Johnny Kilbane specifically stated that his match at the same venue and same date as the original planned Jeannette / Johnson fight (this was to be one of the championship fights on the same card as Jennette/Johnson) was indeed for the title. So are you going to address this or not?

"It would have been poor headwork for me to have started mixing it right off the reel with the Italian. Dundee is a dangerous fellow, has a puzzling style and a damaging punch. I like to please the fight fans, but my title is worth a lot to me and I didn't want to take any chances with the Italian until I had solved his style."

[travestyny]

I believe your first paragraph and last agree what I am saying. Willard was su****ious of how Dempsey's hands were being wrapped. Willard was use to being wrapped with a small amount of gause and Dempsey's wraps were quite modern. Re the picture I have posted before of Dempsey sitting in the ring corner before the Willard fight, with the world to see and photograph his wrappings. They look as though they could have been wrapped yesterday. And yes definitely an advantage.

Gloves wrere never meant to protect the opponent but were meant to protect the fighter's hand. But with today's wrapping the gloves have become (literally) a lethal weapon.

It is a paradox like the NFL - want to make football safer? Make face masks illegal.

Want to make fights safer - revert to 5 ounce glove with limited cloth wrappings.

The punches to the face hurt more but there would be no winging power punches to the head; precise targeting of the body and face would become mandatory unless one likes breaking his hand.

So when you say he had an advantage, do you mean that his punches would do more damage because of the way they were wrapped, or that his hands would be better protected.


Because hardening wraps that were used with the express purpose of doing "unusual damage" means to me that they were meant to do more damage. Obviously he didn't need them to protect his hands since Tunney asked that bicycle tape be barred from their fight and there was no problem with that. He could have easily agreed to what Willard wanted and kept it on an even playing field, but he (and DeForest) decided not to.

[Willie Pep 229]

So when you say he had an advantage, do you mean that his punches would do more damage because of the way they were wrapped, or that his hands would be better protected.


Because hardening wraps that were used with the express purpose of doing "unusual damage" means to me that they were meant to do more damage. Obviously he didn't need them to protect his hands since Tunney asked that bicycle tape be barred from their fight and there was no problem with that. He could have easily agreed to what Willard wanted and kept it on an even playing field, but he (and DeForest) decided not to.

No I am saying his hands were wrapped as per the new methods of wrapping that were being deployed for the day. If it gave Demosey an advantage the fault lies with Willard's people for not keeping abreast of the innovations of the game.

As I said Dempsey didn't hesitate to let his wrappings be photographed. It suggest they were not hiding anything.

Yes with those wrappings he could hit harder. Whether they made the gloves harder, I don't know. Willard was satisfied.

I don't get the bicycle tape thing but do you have a source where Tunney explicitly refers to bicycle tape? I assume since Tunney is making demands it was the '27 fight. If so then it makes me ask how were Dempsey's hands wrapped in '26?