Why is there no ring film of Harry Greb?

[JAB5239]

I don't think it's hard to promote Greb as a viable HW contender even if the public was HW-centric because he'd beaten so many who were HW contenders.

Spink and Tyson is very different than Greb and Dempsey because Spinks didn't beat the guys Tyson beat before he beat them.... well except Holmes.

Greb beat Miske in 1919

Jack gave Miske a title fight in 1920

Greb beat Brennan in 1919

Jack gave Bill Brennan a title shot in 1920

Greb beat Gibbons in 1921

Jack gave Gibbons a title shot in 1922

You're telling me this is a hard fight to promote and get credit from the fans and Miske, Brennan, and Gibbons were easier names for Dempsey's team to promote as valid contenders? I'm not buying that **** at all.

If SRR beat up Moore, Charles, and Matthews then lost a bid against Rocky at HW, not only would he be one of Marciano's beat wins, he'd be one of the best LHWs ever too.

It's crazy to me to suggest that juxtaposition to the champion doesn't have obvious merit. Dempsey should have fought Greb. In 1922 Tunney hasn't beaten Greb yet. It's an easy sell. Hell, in 22 Norfolk hasn't beaten Greb yet either and is putting pressure on the champion for a fight. Norfolk beats up Dempsey training partners Tate and Gahee, respected HWs in Jeff Clark and Joe Jeanette, and former Dempsey vanquisher John Lester from like 1918-1921. Greb puts the breaks on Norfolk's momentum and Wills ends it. A win over Greb would have given Dempsey plenty to brag about in 1922.

Bravo!! Very good post!!

[travestyny]

My God T you just called yourself Fox News "fair and balanced " and me 'fake news' -- think about that.

PS I included you because I like u.

lol. I wouldn't call either of us Fox News. That's more disrespectful than when you called me a racist

[travestyny]

I have been listening to William Manchester's The Glory and the Drean a history of the USA from 1932 to 1972 - it is a great book but he doesn't include any boxing except Louis and the war.

He wrote the book in the mid 70s and he employs a strange method where he uses the polite term for Bkacks based on what period he is discussing. I guess it subconsciously rubbed off. It, Negro seems to make the point better especially when taking about past racism. It isn't rude or hatfulbut you can hear that dog whistle racism non the less. I thought it the right word to use to make that point.

P.S. he keeps calling Japanese "Nips" and doesn't seem to think it wrong.

No no, I was kinda taking the piss. They also use it in Unforgivable Blackness and Clay's book on Langford, which was the last two books I read, and I'm actually happy they used it. It just helps you transport back to those times.

[travestyny]

Are you surprised. He lied through his teeth on that entire post. The guy who defends Mayweather, Johnson and Wills to the very death accuses us of defending Dempsey at all costs. At least we provide actual sources and references. Dempsey did indeed agree to fight Wills on three occasions. First two Wills people didn't deliver. The third, Dempsey did him a favor. Wills ducks Tunney and his best payday ever only to get mauled by Sharkey, who Dempsey KO'd. By 1926 it was all over for Wills. He was more interested in lawsuits than actual fights.

You can't argue with people who already have their minds made up before they type the first word. Or insist on having the last word at all costs.

Lied? Care to tell what lie I told, Mr. "The money wasn't there."


Who's the liar? Dempsey did Wills a favor my ass. By waiting until he got old. Dempsey wasn't what he was in 1926 either. His old buddy De Forest was saying he would lose to Tunney because he was looking like shlt in training. Plus we all know that Tunney made him remove his bicycle tape.


As for Wills ducking Tunney...complete bullshlt. Wills was ready and waiting for Dempsey to grow a pair. When he had a fight that he owed to New Jersey before the supposed Dempsey match, he offered it to Tunney. Tunney's manager declined it.


GR8dMH.png

Newark promoters, who staged the recent flop between Wills and Floyd Johnson, said Wills was willing to accept Tunney for that date, but that Gibson refused on the grounds that it was an outdoor attraction and that neither of the fighters could get the purse out of an armory that the match was worth

Oh, and here is that check that you keep pretending doesn't exist, liar!!!!!! How's that for sources and references?

[travestyny]

I thought it was 1922 but I only think that.-- if it was 1926 then Gibbons coming in second would mean the populace wanted a rematch to a stinker but maybe - fans never actually saw the fight so maybe they thought the decision was close.

In regards to Greb's absence on the survey that is not a slam dunk argument in my favor at all - the group that put the survey together may have chosen themselves to include only HWs.

I thought it was 'fox news' T who had posted the survey. It was part if one of our endless Wills debates I tgought.

Oh, I thought that was a joke. You calling me Fox News seriously?


Ok buddy. Let's get it on. Tell me what I lied about. I'll wait.


By the end of this conversation, you'll be admitting that Dempsey ducked Wills, or looking foolish. I guarantee it.

[GhostofDempsey]

I don't think it's hard to promote Greb as a viable HW contender even if the public was HW-centric because he'd beaten so many who were HW contenders.

Spink and Tyson is very different than Greb and Dempsey because Spinks didn't beat the guys Tyson beat before he beat them.... well except Holmes.

Greb beat Miske in 1919

Jack gave Miske a title fight in 1920

Greb beat Brennan in 1919

Jack gave Bill Brennan a title shot in 1920

Greb beat Gibbons in 1921

Jack gave Gibbons a title shot in 1922

You're telling me this is a hard fight to promote and get credit from the fans and Miske, Brennan, and Gibbons were easier names for Dempsey's team to promote as valid contenders? I'm not buying that **** at all.

If SRR beat up Moore, Charles, and Matthews then lost a bid against Rocky at HW, not only would he be one of Marciano's beat wins, he'd be one of the best LHWs ever too.

It's crazy to me to suggest that juxtaposition to the champion doesn't have obvious merit. Dempsey should have fought Greb. In 1922 Tunney hasn't beaten Greb yet. It's an easy sell. Hell, in 22 Norfolk hasn't beaten Greb yet either and is putting pressure on the champion for a fight. Norfolk beats up Dempsey training partners Tate and Gahee, respected HWs in Jeff Clark and Joe Jeanette, and former Dempsey vanquisher John Lester from like 1918-1921. Greb puts the breaks on Norfolk's momentum and Wills ends it. A win over Greb would have given Dempsey plenty to brag about in 1922.

Dempsey beat Miske twice in 1918...before Greb beat him.

Dempsey beat Brennan in 1918...before Greb beat him.

Dempsey beat Meehan before Greb.

According to press at ringside for the Greb/Gibbons fight..."As a fight it was a disappointment. It was furiously fast and hotly contested, but the impression stood out all over that either one would be easy for Dempsey."

Seems like Greb fought a lot of Dempsey's leftovers. At least that's how Floyd fans would phrase it when they speak of Pacquiao. Double standards much?

Why did Marciano fight a washed up, older Moore who had already lost to Charles 3x, the last one ending in brutal KO?

There is no GOOD win for a HW against a MW. Tyson Spinks is a perfect example of how a bigger man doesn't get credit against a great smaller man. And that's a LHW great, not a MW. A win over Greb is nothing to brag about for Dempsey. Same way a win over Ketchel was nothing to brag about for Johnson, though that doesn't stop some casuals from doing just that.

[travestyny]

I know I've posted the survey before but I don't remember the year. Can someone tell me the year again?

The date of the poll was circa March 15, 1922, and it looked like this:

8L4J1A.png


But here's some bad news for the Dempsey Stans. Another poll done in New York that was underway May 9th, 1922. Sure, Wills can be expected to be on top. But look who makes an appearance:

5. Harry Greb: 1,399 votes

11. Gene Tunney: 409 votes

[JAB5239]

Dempsey beat Miske twice in 1918...before Greb beat him.

Dempsey beat Brennan in 1918...before Greb beat him.

Dempsey beat Meehan before Greb.

According to press at ringside for the Greb/Gibbons fight..."As a fight it was a disappointment. It was furiously fast and hotly contested, but the impression stood out all over that either one would be easy for Dempsey."

Seems like Greb fought a lot of Dempsey's leftovers. At least that's how Floyd fans would phrase it when they speak of Pacquiao. Double standards much?

Why did Marciano fight a washed up, older Moore who had already lost to Charles 3x, the last one ending in brutal KO?

There is no GOOD win for a HW against a MW. Tyson Spinks is a perfect example of how a bigger man doesn't get credit against a great smaller man. And that's a LHW great, not a MW. A win over Greb is nothing to brag about for Dempsey. Same way a win over Ketchel was nothing to brag about for Johnson, though that doesn't stop some casuals from doing just that.

So what is the point of Dempsey fighting these retreads again instead of Greb, who also beat them? And please don't come back with the "he was a middleweight" crap. Greb was beating much bigger men and wasn't weighing 160 while doing so. He proved he was capable in being in the ring with Jack. There are really no more excuses my friend.

[GhostofDempsey]

So what is the point of Dempsey fighting these retreads again instead of Greb, who also beat them? And please don't come back with the "he was a middleweight" crap. Greb was beating much bigger men and wasn't weighing 160 while doing so. He proved he was capable in being in the ring with Jack. There are really no more excuses my friend.

Why did most fighters fight "retreads" as you put it? Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, Tommy Loughran, even Greb himself? Again, you're holding Dempsey to a double standard. I've already explained to you countless times, there was no money in a Greb fight, and Greb was not exactly a fan favorite back then. When Greb won a decision over Brennan in 1919, The Tulsa ******** newspaper said "although Greb's jumping-jack slapping tactics might gain him the necessary points to win decisions, his hit and move style failed to enthuse the spectators, for the most interesting bouts were made when both battlers were doing real hitting. There were few toe-to-toe exchanges. He poked Brennan continually and poked his thumb in the big fellow's eye, almost putting it out of commission. Head and elbows also were valuable aids to Greb's cause. For a victor he aroused about as little enthusiasm as any visitor ever shown here."

Greb's style, though busy, lended itself to decision wins. All accounts of his title win over Johnny Wilson said it was an ordinary fight, lacking any thrills. Wilson himself insists the fight outcome was fixed. Without any actual footage of Greb it is difficult to quantify his style and whether or not he was entertaining, but many newspaper accounts and fans insist he was not only dirty but not very exciting. Hence he wasn't a big draw.

[travestyny]

This article proves two things, you’re also a fan of hundred year old anonymous sources and Greb was not a draw.

From the United Press: As a fight it was a disappointment. It was furiously fast and hotly contested, but the impression stood out all over that either one would be easy for Dempsey. All of them were closer in size and weight to Dempsey too.

Oh, you mean this hundred year old anonymous source? How many times have I proven this dude is a hypocrite who will say anything to fit his agenda? Pathetic.


Enoqkx.png


I wonder if there was a name on this one or if it was a "one hundred year old anonymous source." Suddenly he loves them when they fit his agenda.

The Tulsa ******** newspaper said "although Greb's jumping-jack slapping tactics might gain him the necessary points to win decisions, his hit and move style failed to enthuse the spectators, for the most interesting bouts were made when both battlers were doing real hitting. There were few toe-to-toe exchanges. He poked Brennan continually and poked his thumb in the big fellow's eye, almost putting it out of commission. Head and elbows also were valuable aids to Greb's cause. For a victor he aroused about as little enthusiasm as any visitor ever shown here."