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Come on Pep, I think you know what my point was. The fact is Greb was easily handling bigger guys. Ghost of Dempsey made it sound (in my opinion) that Greb was just to small. While that may have turned out to be true (we'll never know) Greb not only beat bigger fighters on the regular, he beat many fighters Dempsey chose to fight instead of him.
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For one thing they weren’t middleweights. You have to remember, Dempsey wasn’t well liked by most fan until his first loss to Tunney. He was always under scrutiny, fighting Greb was a lose-lose proposition. If he wins he beat a much smaller MW, if he loses he lost to a much smaller MW. Greb wasn’t the biggest name either and not a huge draw as proven in his matches with Tunney. In what era does a HW ever get accused of ducking a MW? Or have it held against him? Imagine if Holyfield or Tyson fought Hagler, would that go down as a great win for either man?Comment
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Imagine if Hagler was beating all the guys Holyfield and Tyson beat after him, but neither fought him?
You're not explaining why it was better that Dempsey fought guys Greb had already beaten. What made those better and more competitive fights than Harry would have been? It was lose/lose against Greb, but not Miske? How about Brennan who was shut out by Greb in 3 fights? Gibbons? How was is not lose/lose against Carpentier who blatantly avoided Greb to hold onto his title? I'm curious why you're ok with these fights that happened, but are opposed to Dempsey fighting Greb.Comment
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Next, he'll run roughshod over Dempsey for the heavyweight crown. (They never fought officialy, but unofflciallv they did-in the training ring and Dempsey did so badly that when Promoter Charley Murray tried to match them, Jack Kearns, Demp-sey's manager, said, "No, thanks. We want no traffic with that Seven-Year Itch.")Comment
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We can play mental gymnastics all day long. But nowhere in boxing history outside of Jack Johnson does anyone give credit to a HW beating a MW. Again, Dempsey stood to gain nothing fighting Greb. Look at a more modern example. To this day Tyson does not get full credit for taking out Spinks in one round, despite Spinks being considered one of the greatest LHW of all time and a bonafide HW at the time they fought. Tyson only weighed six pounds more than Spinks. No way would Dempsey get praised for a win over Greb. Tunney certainly doesn’t. Imagine Marciano beating Robinson, he’d be laughed out of the ring.
You’d have to go back in your time machine and ask Rickard about the match making. Dempsey defeated Brennen before he ever fought Greb. He defeated Miske first too. The last Gibbons/Greb fight was a flop. From the United Press: As a fight it was a disappointment. It was furiously fast and hotly contested, but the impression stood out all over that either one would be easy for Dempsey. All of them were closer in size and weight to Dempsey too.
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I do understand and respect the point you're making - he beat at least once Miske - Brennan - Gibbons - Tunney -- and Carpenteir took a miss - Dempsey only had one defense as an outliner from Greb, Firpo.
I don't believe for a second that Kearns ducked Greb because of the sparing sessons. Kearns loved to call fighters great and claim he was scared of them. He was always promoting; T loves to post a quote where Kearns tells an old, ring worn, half blind Langford that he is scared to let Dempsey fight him. Nonsense, Kearns believed Dempsey could beat anyone.
Greb is simple, Kearns made it public that the starting guarantee to get Dempsey was $300,000 and no one was willing to even come close to that with a Greb bout.
Even when Shelby, Montana made a public challenge/offer to Kearns in the newspapers for $100,000 (Shelby hadn't yet thought of Gibbons). Kearns then answered them with a public reply saying yes he would accept the $200,000 offer. (Not a typo.)
They, Shelby hesitated and then said OK - Kearns trained out to Montana and told them he would have to leave with $100,000 that day, that the second $100,000 must be paid 60 days before the fight, and then he third $100,000 three days before the fight.
The Montana cowboy yahoos had $$ in their eyes, and Kearns had taken them from one to three; why not after all Dempsey's last fight was the 1.7 million dollar gate (Carpentier) so they said yes and gave Kearns the first $100,000 and signed the papers
Kearns would not take less than a $300,000 guarantee.
Oh, LOL Kearns also gave Shelby exclusive film rights (you get it right?) he gave them nothing. When they tried to move the film into New York the feds took the film. Funny thing is Shelby flew the film in by private plane two days after the fight and the feds were waiting for them at the airport, as if they had been tipped off. (Kearns?)
Shelby didn't have the connections like Rickard to work the system with fines and bribes. Neither did Kearns so that's probably why he gave away the rights LOL. Shelby made nothing off the film.
Don't kid yourself, what Kearns told the Pittsburgh promter was nothing other than a blow off. The guy couldn't come up with the cash and Kearns knew it (in the NYT article where he blows the guy off he mentions that he was waiting to hear about more money from Pittsburgh, that never got offered.)Last edited by Willie Pep 229; 03-29-2021, 05:56 PM.Comment
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I love to post it? I think I posted it once or twice. Honestly, I don't think any version of Langford was easy for anyone. I think Kearns meant exactly what he said. I certainly don't buy that Kearns believed Dempsey could beat anyone....or at least I think he believed that he could lose to any of the guys he helped him steer clear of.Comment
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