Why is there no ring film of Harry Greb?

[JAB5239]

Here is another question. If the last Gibbons/Greb fight was such a flop than why did Dempsey give the man who lost that fight a title shot and not the man who won? Looking at their records from the time they fought until Dempsey decided he would rather fight Gibbons, Greb fought more offer, had a better record and beat the better fighters. Was there more money in fighting Gibbons? Was it a better feather in his cap?

[Marchegiano]

Here is another question. If the last Gibbons/Greb fight was such a flop than why did Dempsey give the man who lost that fight a title shot and not the man who won? Looking at their records from the time they fought until Dempsey decided he would rather fight Gibbons, Greb fought more offer, had a better record and beat the better fighters. Was there more money in fighting Gibbons? Was it a better feather in his cap?

That's pretty much what every Dempsey ducked narrative centers around.

[GhostofDempsey]

Here is another question. If the last Gibbons/Greb fight was such a flop than why did Dempsey give the man who lost that fight a title shot and not the man who won? Looking at their records from the time they fought until Dempsey decided he would rather fight Gibbons, Greb fought more offer, had a better record and beat the better fighters. Was there more money in fighting Gibbons? Was it a better feather in his cap?

You keep circling back to the same questions that have been answered, you're just not happy with the answer. There is no prestige and there was no money in a HW champion--the highest accolade in professional sports--fighting a middleweight. Show me any era in pro boxing where a HW would have elevated his status by defeating a MW. A MW with 300 fights whose combined worth was just over $35K at the time of his death. Fans weren't going to buy a smaller MW challenging the bigger HW. They saw what happened to Ketchel several years prior.

[Willie Pep 229]

Here is another question. If the last Gibbons/Greb fight was such a flop than why did Dempsey give the man who lost that fight a title shot and not the man who won? Looking at their records from the time they fought until Dempsey decided he would rather fight Gibbons, Greb fought more offer, had a better record and beat the better fighters. Was there more money in fighting Gibbons? Was it a better feather in his cap?

You are not being fair. I said this at least twice before. Do you read my posts? I am not making this up; it is obvious to anyone who thinks about it, and the people are on record saying it - Gibbons was chosen by the town of Shelby Montana because he was a local boy out of Minnesota. No one in the midwest wanted to see a Negro or the child of an Ellis Island immigrant fight Dempsey. They wanted one of their own just like everyone else does.

I agree with what you said earlier that Dempsey was the draw and could have fought anyone and packed a stadium - it still comes back to someone willing to risk the guarantee and it wasn't forth coming.

This argument you keep making about who beat who is meaningless in prize fighting - this is not the NBA or NFL - there is no league, no schedule and that is not how fights get made, not then or ever. Just not realistic.

But we are both spinning our wheels now repeating ourselves so I will stop ( at least for now)

But I'll say this if one listens to you, T, or SR one would have to conclude that a guy who fought and tore apart 200 +"pound men (Wlliard, Firpo, and Fulton) was habitually afraid of small men.

[Marchegiano]

You are not being fair. I said this at least twice before. Do you read my posts? I am not making this up; it is obvious to anyone who thinks about it, and the people are on record saying it - Gibbons was chosen by the town of Shelby Montana because he was a local boy out of Minnesota. No one in the midwest wanted to see a Negro or the child of an Ellis Island immigrant fight Dempsey. They wanted one of their own just like everyone else does.

I agree with what you said earlier that Dempsey was the draw and could have fought anyone and packed a stadium - it still comes back to someone willing to risk the guarantee and it wasn't forth coming.

This argument you keep making about who beat who is meaningless in prize fighting - this is not the NBA or NFL - there is no league, no schedule and that is not how fights get made, not then or ever. Just not realistic.

But we are both spinning our wheels now repeating ourselves so I will stop ( at least for now)

But I'll say this if one listens to you, T, or SR one would have to conclude that a guy who fought and tore apart 200 +"pound men (Wlliard, Firpo, and Fulton) was habitually afraid of small men.

I am too!! I wouldn't share this because it sounds counter intuitive but since it came up I may as well.

Never had me anything like a real fight, so, the **** do I know really? But for human connection sake and relation to Dempsey; I find sparring HWs easy work, guys my size seem more fair, and guys smaller than me seem to be the hardest thing to deal with. HWs are so big and their fists are so big they just move me. They don't really hurt so much. Guys my size, 150s-180s, hurt like hell but don't have much speed advantage. Smaller guys, 140 and under make me nervous because I'm gonna punch a lot of wind and get hit often.

I'm as much of a bully as I can manage to be. Bit hard to push around a HW, but it is easy to be there in an exchange, their punches come in slow motion. So I'm very confident I can get off a few and get away without taking anything damaging. I might get moved across a small ring plumb to the other side though and positioned for one that does ring my bell a bit, but even then, it's just not as bad as small guys. I'm usually about 160 myself, I don't feel like I have much power advantage over 150s and don't feel overpowered by 180s, the speed is about the same too so I can bully them or just get shown I can't. Hurts a little more to eat one, but I can bully so much better I don't really worry about it.

Small guys light me up from bell to bell. Move too fast, don't feel like nothing until they do. I know it'll be a while before I get a 130 slowed down enough to really hit, push, hold, whatever bull**** tactic I'm trying. They're too fast and have enough weight to still do damage when they commit to doing damage.


If I was a pro I'd assume I'd be more comfortable giving up weight than getting the weight advantage. In my experience weight's a huge disadvantage. You're stuck in slow motion. I like being fast and hitting hard enough and hate sparring a guy who has that juxta on me. Well, hate's a strong word....I really like seeing others do well and can be happy for them but I hate being shown how bad I suck


Maybe skills, real skills from real dedication, makes it very different, I dunno, Rockin' might, but in my small world small guys are hell.

[JAB5239]

You keep circling back to the same questions that have been answered, you're just not happy with the answer. There is no prestige and there was no money in a HW champion--the highest accolade in professional sports--fighting a middleweight. Show me any era in pro boxing where a HW would have elevated his status by defeating a MW. A MW with 300 fights whose combined worth was just over $35K at the time of his death. Fans weren't going to buy a smaller MW challenging the bigger HW. They saw what happened to Ketchel several years prior.

You keep circling back to Greb's money at his passing. That has nothing to do with his value as a fighter. You still haven't answered how Tyson or Holyfield would look if they never fought Hagler and Hagler was beating guys they fought before they fought them? Remember, you put that out there. You also haven't commented on Fitzsimmons-Jeffries. Those two fights have certainly elevated Jeffries, and there was a bigger weight discrepancy than there would have been with Dempsey-Greb.

[travestyny]

No one in the midwest wanted to see a Negro

Geez. You just stepped back into "the times" huh? lol.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not offended nor do I think it's a dirty word (kinda), but it just stuck out like a sore thumb. lol.

But I'll say this if one listens to you, T,

Why am I dragged into it. I thought I've been fair. I stated that you have a point about following the offers. My only question was whether the offers were just shut down because Dempsey was so protected by the people around him.

Jab has great points as well, and he's backed it up with a lot of information. And he stated his viewpoint regarding why he believes this was a duck. He also applies it to Johnson and states that's why he believes Johnson ducked Langford. I obviously disagree because Johnson agreed to fight Langford 3 times and the fight didn't come off any of those three times due to reasons not his fault, including Langford's team being responsible for two such occasions being missed. But certainly Jab is entitled to his opinion. I lean toward this (Greb/Dempsey) not being labeled a duck on Dempsey's part because for whatever reasons the offers weren't there, but I am very su****ious that this was because of the usual suspects protecting him (and I don't give him a pass for allowing them to protect him). But what's interesting about guys like you and GhostofDempsey is that you will take up for Dempsey no matter what point of view is taken regarding ducking. GhostofDemspey stated above that Dempsey signed to fight Wills but he knows that it was BS the first time he signed and the second was connected to the third in which Dempsey blatantly broke the contract. He's still claiming the money wasn't present (which even you acknowledged, I believe, that it was present) and it's been proven that is false, yet he still claims that is the case because he can't handle the truth. You claim it was "the times" that didn't allow the Wills fight, but Jab proved to you that wasn't the case with the poll that you have referred to in this argument yourself.

So really, you guys should just admit that no matter what, you are incapable of being honest about Dempsey and he could never do any wrong in your eyes. If you single out the offers not being present for the reason Dempsey didn't duck Greb, and refer to the poll taken by the public, I have no idea how you can still take the stance that Dempsey didn't duck Wills. Just keep it real and admit you will continue to be biased for Dempsey no matter what is presented.

[billeau2]

I repeat I can't prove a negative - you have to prove the fight could have drawn but you have no offers to show and Greb doesn't even appear on the fan survey T posted.

Pressure is on you to take your argument pass opinion; I can not prove a negative, no one can.

'Beat the wheels off him" a bit overstated, no?

That context for a logical truism is a bit forced. When you are attempting to prove a conclusion about a fight, like: if it would be of interest, it is not proving a negative to support a conclusion that the fight would/would not be a draw. I don't really have an interest in this conclusion... I don't know either way, but there should be a way to consider the potential draw of a fight between these two men.

[Willie Pep 229]

Geez. You just stepped back into "the times" huh? lol.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not offended nor do I think it's a dirty word (kinda), but it just stuck out like a sore thumb. lol.



Why am I dragged into it. I thought I've been fair. I stated that you have a point about following the offers. My only question was whether the offers were just shut down because Dempsey was so protected by the people around him.

Jab has great points as well, and he's backed it up with a lot of information. And he stated his viewpoint regarding why he believes this was a duck. He also applies it to Johnson and states that's why he believes Johnson ducked Langford. I obviously disagree because Johnson agreed to fight Langford 3 times and the fight didn't come off any of those three times due to reasons not his fault, including Langford's team being responsible for two such occasions being missed. But certainly Jab is entitled to his opinion. I lean toward this (Greb/Dempsey) not being labeled a duck on Dempsey's part because for whatever reasons the offers weren't there, but I am very su****ious that this was because of the usual suspects protecting him (and I don't give him a pass for allowing them to protect him). But what's interesting about guys like you and GhostofDempsey is that you will take up for Dempsey no matter what point of view is taken regarding ducking. GhostofDemspey stated above that Dempsey signed to fight Wills but he knows that it was BS the first time he signed and the second was connected to the third in which Dempsey blatantly broke the contract. He's still claiming the money wasn't present (which even you acknowledged, I believe, that it was present) and it's been proven that is false, yet he still claims that is the case because he can't handle the truth. You claim it was "the times" that didn't allow the Wills fight, but Jab proved to you that wasn't the case with the poll that you have referred to in this argument yourself.

So really, you guys should just admit that no matter what, you are incapable of being honest about Dempsey and he could never do any wrong in your eyes. If you single out the offers not being present for the reason Dempsey didn't duck Greb, and refer to the poll taken by the public, I have no idea how you can still take the stance that Dempsey didn't duck Wills. Just keep it real and admit you will continue to be biased for Dempsey no matter what is presented.

My God T you just called yourself Fox News "fair and balanced " and me 'fake news' -- think about that.

PS I included you because I like u.

[Willie Pep 229]

That context for a logical truism is a bit forced. When you are attempting to prove a conclusion about a fight, like: if it would be of interest, it is not proving a negative to support a conclusion that the fight would/would not be a draw. I don't really have an interest in this conclusion... I don't know either way, but there should be a way to consider the potential draw of a fight between these two men.

What might that be ?

We have a survey but Greb's not on it - we have one offer but it is way too low - so what might that "way to do it" be?