Why is there no ring film of Harry Greb?

[Willie Pep 229]

https://tss.ib.tv/boxing/articles-of...one-harry-greb

https://www.harrygreb.com/dempsey_greb.html

https://coxscorner.tripod.com/greb.html

There is much more stuff out there, these are just the easiest to find. About 10 years ago I spent a few weeks digging up newspaper articles related to Dempsey and Greb. Id actually like to do it again because it was fascinating reading. Mind you not everything I found was in Greb's favor concerning a fight with Dempsey, but most was. The fight should have happened. If you disagree so be it. But nothing except a treasure trove of new articles from that time period that proclaim Greb as undeserving or less capable the the men Dempsey fought instead of him will change my mind.

Ah! So Greb butted Dempsey? -- Just teasing (he did, but still just teasing) -- Some good reads I will poke around the New York Times; should be able to find where the fist link's quote came from.

The Kearns quote about fighting Greb in Philly for eight rounds, and the later the 100,000 dollar offer has an interesting back story to it. The NYSAC in 1922 threatened to strip Dempsey of his title unless he signed to face Wills by a certain date. As that deadline date was approaching Kearns was (in my opinion, disingenuously) negotiating publicly with Greb's people and a Pittsburgh promoter for a fall 1922 fight in Philly. Thus threating to vacate New York. Then when the date came for the NYSAC to act (strip Dempsey) they balked and backed off, Kearns no longer needed to pretend he was going to let Dempsey fight Greb. The same day the commission balked Kearns appears in the newspaper (NYT) and announcers that he's not interested in Greb. The Pittsburgh promoter tries to save face by claiming he was backing out because of time restraints, but Kearns embarrassed him by calling him small potatoes. Kearns was a creep.

In short Kearns used Greb to make the NYSAC commission back off

I got the third link to go read, again thanks for posting, good reads.

[travestyny]

https://tss.ib.tv/boxing/articles-of...one-harry-greb

https://www.harrygreb.com/dempsey_greb.html

https://coxscorner.tripod.com/greb.html

There is much more stuff out there, these are just the easiest to find. About 10 years ago I spent a few weeks digging up newspaper articles related to Dempsey and Greb. Id actually like to do it again because it was fascinating reading. Mind you not everything I found was in Greb's favor concerning a fight with Dempsey, but most was. The fight should have happened. If you disagree so be it. But nothing except a treasure trove of new articles from that time period that proclaim Greb as undeserving or less capable the the men Dempsey fought instead of him will change my mind.

Well damn. Those three articles really boost your argument. Didn't know that this was going on for so long.


One thing I didn't see mentioned that I ran into....any truth that Greb was even sparring with Dempsey for the Willard fight? I've read a few articles stating as such, and they pretty much say that Greb made Dempsey look foolish and was let go as a sparring partner.

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As for the offers, I wonder if it was just a matter of Kearns shutting down all of the offers.

[GhostofDempsey]

I do not believe 1920s fans thoight of Greb at the level he is now been risen to . . . Greb didn't become a top tier fighter (in the minds if the fans) until he beat Tunney in 1922 and then he dropped (unfairly or not) all the rematches.

How some fans feel today about Greb is how 1920s fans actually felt about Dempsey. Dempsey was a U guy! (thought unbeatable). Greb was never that guy in the 1920s. Funny how some fans today think he was that guy.

Good points. What people need to realize is that the HW championship was the top prize in all of sports back then. A HW champion taking on a challenge from a MW had zero prestige. It would not have done nearly as well as a HW match. After the Jack Johnson/Stanley Ketchel debacle, I don't think fans were willing to spend good money to see another mismatch. A win over Greb would have done little to nothing for Dempsey's reputation or legacy. Greb's one win and a draw over Tunney did way more for his legacy than Tunney's three wins over Greb. Their combined purses for all five of their fights was less than one of Dempsey's fights.

[JAB5239]

Good points. What people need to realize is that the HW championship was the top prize in all of sports back then. A HW champion taking on a challenge from a MW had zero prestige. It would not have done nearly as well as a HW match. After the Jack Johnson/Stanley Ketchel debacle, I don't think fans were willing to spend good money to see another mismatch. A win over Greb would have done little to nothing for Dempsey's reputation or legacy. Greb's one win and a draw over Tunney did way more for his legacy than Tunney's three wins over Greb. Their combined purses for all five of their fights was less than one of Dempsey's fights.

You're trying to make it sound like Greb was only fighting middleweights when the fact is he was slaughtering the top light heavyweights Dempsey would fight instead of him. He was beating heavyweights as well. Are you trying to say fans would have rather seen Dempsey fight guys Greb had already beaten than Greb himself who by all accounts had his way with Dempsey in sparring?

[Willie Pep 229]

You're trying to make it sound like Greb was only fighting middleweights when the fact is he was slaughtering the top light heavyweights Dempsey would fight instead of him. He was beating heavyweights as well. Are you trying to say fans would have rather seen Dempsey fight guys Greb had already beaten than Greb himself who by all accounts had his way with Dempsey in sparring?

"Slaughtering" ?? He went 2-1 all NWS decisions with Tommy Gibbons ( which is impressive) but he wasn't slaughtering him -- a lite hitter with a less than 50 % KO record an that doesn't include 100 plus NSW decision. He wasn't slaughtering anyone almost always dependent on judges/newspaper decisions.

[billeau2]

You're trying to make it sound like Greb was only fighting middleweights when the fact is he was slaughtering the top light heavyweights Dempsey would fight instead of him. He was beating heavyweights as well. Are you trying to say fans would have rather seen Dempsey fight guys Greb had already beaten than Greb himself who by all accounts had his way with Dempsey in sparring?

There is no shame in saying Greb deserved an opportunity. I can agree with that opinion. My only caveat is I would not base this opinion on the sparring. I would base it on the potential for Greb to prepare to fight Dempsey, perhaps even putting on some extra weight. I think Greb would be a lot more effective than Carpentier who was a fantastic fighter, but ultimately was not dangerous enough as a puncher, for Dempsey, who walked through and flattened him. Greb did fight up and do well, that is a fact.

[billeau2]

"Slaughtering" ?? He went 2-1 all NWS decisions with Tommy Gibbons ( which is impressive) but he wasn't slaughtering him -- a lite hitter with a less than 50 % KO record an that doesn't include 100 plus NSW decision. He wasn't slaughtering anyone almost always dependent on judges/newspaper decisions.

Well...... He wasn't knocking them out so much when fighting up, but he was by all accounts overwhelming his opponents. lets keep some perspective here: When Usyk decided to fight heavyweight he took on Chisora, who was crap. I like Chisora but, Derrick was slow and should have been a wash. Usyk certainly beat Chisora, by a handy decision, but in so doing he almost got starched, and did not look good. This fight is an example of a difference that can show us perspective: Greb was not almost getting starched, winning by the seat of his pants against poor competition like Usyk was, he was beating great fighters, and doing it by overwhelming them with his abilities.

My point is, Usyk showed IMO he has no business fighting heavyweights, Greb, even in losing a fight against Gibbons, showed that he was effective fighting up. I know Gibbons was light heavy lol.

[BattlingNelson]

This thread has been highly informative. I have always held Greb in the highest of regards, but his rep has elevated for me. As for Dempsey.... hmmmm... these past years here on boxing scene has dented his rep a bit hasn’t it? It’s not a good look that he not not only drew the color line but also didn’t face Greb is kinda sad. Somehow Dempsey used his fantastic popularity to get away with not fighting the best to a degree that doesn’t look good.

whatever. Good stuff from the contributors in this thread.

[JAB5239]

There is no shame in saying Greb deserved an opportunity. I can agree with that opinion. My only caveat is I would not base this opinion on the sparring. I would base it on the potential for Greb to prepare to fight Dempsey, perhaps even putting on some extra weight. I think Greb would be a lot more effective than Carpentier who was a fantastic fighter, but ultimately was not dangerous enough as a puncher, for Dempsey, who walked through and flattened him. Greb did fight up and do well, that is a fact.

I think that is a fair enough point.

[GhostofDempsey]

This thread has been highly informative. I have always held Greb in the highest of regards, but his rep has elevated for me. As for Dempsey.... hmmmm... these past years here on boxing scene has dented his rep a bit hasn’t it? It’s not a good look that he not not only drew the color line but also didn’t face Greb is kinda sad. Somehow Dempsey used his fantastic popularity to get away with not fighting the best to a degree that doesn’t look good.

whatever. Good stuff from the contributors in this thread.

His management drew the color line, not him. He signed a couple of contracts to fight Wills and his people never came through with the money. That was twice to fight a prime Wills. By 1926 Wills ducked Tunney for his best payday ever and got his ass handed to him by Sharkey. No doubt Dempsey would have smashed him up just as easily. Most serious historians agree Dempsey would have beaten any version of him.

Again, no prestige in beating a MW. Maybe for Johnson (who drew the color line as champion himself), but not for Dempsey or any other serious HW champ. I find it amusing that Dempsey is always held to a double standard here while Johnson and many other fighters aren’t. You’ve allowed someone’s personal agenda on here to muddy the waters. So be it, you’re entitled to your opinion like anyone else.