Does anyone on here think Muhhamad Ali is overrated?

[TheGreatA]

Joe Frazier lost 15 pounds in his 1st fight with Muhammad Ali.

Can't say I've ever heard of that before. Frazier would have then weighed 190 lbs, a dangerously low weight for him considering he was never much lower than 200 lbs.

[Sugarj]

Wow, over a stone is a ridiculous amount to lose over a fifteen round fight. I've lost close on half a stone on some of my runs and I'm closer to the light middle mark. It is possible......I guess for a heavyweight, but quite suprising!

[RightCross94]

Wow, over a stone is a ridiculous amount to lose over a fifteen round fight. I've lost close on half a stone on some of my runs and I'm closer to the light middle mark. It is possible......I guess for a heavyweight, but quite suprising!

i remember reading in Evander's book "becoming Holyfield" that he lost like 14 lbs (not sure on the exact amount) during the 1st Qawi fight

[RightCross94]

Joe Frazier lost 15 pounds in his 1st fight with Muhammad Ali.

Yes but Robinson was 158 for his fight with Maxim whereas Joe was 205 vs Ali, Robinson would have been more severely affected due to his smaller size.

[Slimey Limey]

There's a difference between the severity of being dehydrated. Only a fool would deny this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperthermia

As I've proven previously, Robinson lost 10 pounds of weight during the fight.







Well, since you think there are so many people who label Louis a quitter, I'd like you to point out one good source where anyone (aside from you) criticizes Louis for having no heart and quitting against Schmeling. Should be easy.

At the same time I can point out to numerous sources that have no mention of Louis "quitting":

http://books.google.fi/books?id=Exgn...age&q=&f=false

Louis was not able to get up, because he had been beaten down. End of story.



I'm simply pointing out your obvious hypocrisy, ignorance and bias for excusing Tyson's quitting in other fights because he continued fighting once, while calling Louis and Robinson cowards even though they showed heart in numerous fights.

How much did 45 year old Ray Robinson have left as a fighter when he kept getting up against 20 year younger opposition and went the distance everytime? How much did Joe Louis have left when he fought Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles and Rocky Marciano? Did he ever show any quit in those fights?

You bringing up the Tyson-Lewis fight is funny by the way because Tyson was still conscious, although beaten down, yet he took the 10 count much like Louis. That's because he had nothing left.

Willard retired in his corner, Holyfield was stopped by the referee, Frazier was beaten down and didn't know where he was, Ruddock was the victim of an early stoppage, Golota was disqualified for low blows, Moore went down from sheer exhaustion. I don't see your point bringing up these fights.



Robinson was stopped because he was in no condition to continue.
Louis took a 12 round beating until finally going down in the 12th round.

You can argue that they "quit" all you want but in the end the only one you might be convincing is your own self, and I doubt even that.

I've brought up the facts about the condition Robinson was in, examined by doctors, observed by ringside viewers and boxing experts.



You ignore the facts I present and only offer your ignorant, baseless opinions, backed up with absolutely nothing.

I responded to your claims in that thread by the way but you completely ignored them, knowing you could retort with nothing.

You keep trying to make SGR a special case when he's not. Many a fighters have lost weight during a fights, fought in extreme heat, were in danger etc. And he has no one but himself to blame for that. Hell I've seen warriors fight on with bloodclots in their brain. Robinson may have shown heart in other fights, but he is not on the level of an Ali, Marciano, Frazier etc when it comes to heart. He QUIT, and you need to deal with that, mate.

And I was talking about posters on this site since I've been here far longer than you have. If you dig deep enough you'll actually find objective people unlike ******s like you who's close mindedness and bias are so severe that they should be ignored more often than not. I gave you all the argument as to why Louis quit and this is maybe the fourth time you ignored it. You just say "no he was beaten" and then act like it's all done. That only proves ME right lad.

And now fourth time you ignored Lewis-Tyson. And you completely missed the point on all those fights and did exactly what I predicted you to do. Thanks for proving me right yet again mate. The point is that those fighters kept coming out in the next round to actually FINISH the fight unlike your Salty hero who put on a crappy acting performance.

You keep talking like I ignored your facts when you're the one ignoring just about every single argument I present. That's the obvious hypocrite in you lad. I don't think I've ever denied Salty Gay was having a hard time in there with Maxim. Hell this is boxing, and the reason I DON'T excuse him for it is because i'm not a moron like you who would suck his wanker the moment I see him, because I realise it was his OWN fault for being in that condition. A moron like Gay who doesn't drink anything before a fight deserves no apologists like you. Meanwhile I see Frazier-Ali fights, Holy-Bowe, Tyson-Ruddock etc etc and I see warriors with no excuses. The fact that you spend 99% of your time defending Gay's ******ed mistakes and not acknowledging that it was his OWN fault shows who the real fool is.

And no you did not respond to me in that thunderdome thread. I must have asked you 15 times to prove to me that I was some guy's alt, remember? When I got several alt experts in there that all agreed with ME, you quickly shut your ****** mouth about it and never dared to accuse me again. You got owned, ****.

[TheGreatA]

You keep trying to make SGR a special case when he's not. Many a fighters have lost weight during a fights, fought in extreme heat, were in danger etc. And he has no one but himself to blame for that. Hell I've seen warriors fight on with bloodclots in their brain. Robinson may have shown heart in other fights, but he is not on the level of an Ali, Marciano, Frazier etc when it comes to heart. He QUIT, and you need to deal with that, mate

You still haven't proven that he actually quit. It's about the same as "princemanspoper" saying that Frazier quit against Ali, it's only his opinion which has no real facts to back them up. Both fights were stopped due to the fighters being unable to continue.


6:25

And I was talking about posters on this site since I've been here far longer than you have. If you dig deep enough you'll actually find objective people unlike ******s like you who's close mindedness and bias are so severe that they should be ignored more often than not. I gave you all the argument as to why Louis quit and this is maybe the fourth time you ignored it. You just say "no he was beaten" and then act like it's all done. That only proves ME right lad.

As I said, bring up one example of anyone other than you stating that Louis quit and I might believe you.

Here's one post I found from way back:

WOW, you wanna talk heart?? Louis got dropped twice in one round after his prime from Walcott and came back and won the fight. Foreman got knocked down twice by Lyle and came back and knocked him out. Ali got the **** knocked out of him by Frazier and shot him in no less than 4 seconds. Frazier was getting hit by arguably the most powerful punches ever in boxing from Foreman, but he shot up everytime and was probably willing to die that night before he lost. Ali has been knocked down a few other times and has come back and won the fight. Compared to these, getting up and just getting knocked out later is nothing.

Tyson got PUSHED down by a fighter he could have easily have beaten, but he quit. In the Lewis fight, he doesn't even get knocked down, he just bends his knees down low to avoid further punishment. You wanna talk heart, ****ing Tyson tried to end a fight by biting the **** out off Holyfield's ear to end the fight before he got the **** knocked out of him.

Here's more:

Wait a second here...just on the last page weren't you saying that there in "no evidence suggesting he was going to quit"?

"Cut my gloves off. I can't see. We're going home." Cassius Clay yelled - page 194 of Angelo Dundee's 'I Only Talk Winning'.

"Clay didn't want to come out for the round at all. He told me later he was at the door of the Near Room--the place with the trombone-playing alligators and the screaming snakes. He said that his eyes hurt so much from whatever it was in them that he told Dundee to "cut the gloves off"." - page 104 of Plimpton's 'Shadow Box'.

What YOU don't get is that there is in fact very clear "evidence suggesting he was going to quit", including the words of both his cornerman and Ali himself. And both sources I cited up there describe how Dundee basically had to shove Ali back in the ring at the beginning of the fifth round..."I shoved Cassius forward into the ring" (Dundee says after describing a brief argument he had with Ali in the corner) and "Dundee finally got his fighter moving, pushing him toward the center of the ring" (Plimpton).

I didn't come into this discussion stating Ali quit, lacked heart or anything like that...I only came in when you made that "no evidence suggesting" comment.

And now fourth time you ignored Lewis-Tyson. And you completely missed the point on all those fights and did exactly what I predicted you to do. Thanks for proving me right yet again mate. The point is that those fighters kept coming out in the next round to actually FINISH the fight unlike your Salty hero who put on a crappy acting performance.

So did Joe Louis.

You're calling what Robinson did an act? Ringside doctors, viewers, experts and officials all disagree with you. I'm afraid you're on your own with that.

You keep talking like I ignored your facts when you're the one ignoring just about every single argument I present. That's the obvious hypocrite in you lad. I don't think I've ever denied Salty Gay was having a hard time in there with Maxim. Hell this is boxing, and the reason I DON'T excuse him for it is because i'm not a moron like you who would suck his wanker the moment I see him, because I realise it was his OWN fault for being in that condition. A moron like Gay who doesn't drink anything before a fight deserves no apologists like you. Meanwhile I see Frazier-Ali fights, Holy-Bowe, Tyson-Ruddock etc etc and I see warriors with no excuses. The fact that you spend 99% of your time defending Gay's ******ed mistakes and not acknowledging that it was his OWN fault shows who the real fool is.

My point is not that he was or wasn't a moron, my point is that he wasn't a quitter nor a coward for what happened to him in the Maxim fight. I'd agree if you said that him being dehydrated and being unprepared for the conditions he was about to fight under were mostly his own fault.

That's not what we are arguing about however.

And no you did not respond to me in that thunderdome thread. I must have asked you 15 times to prove to me that I was some guy's alt, remember? When I got several alt experts in there that all agreed with ME, you quickly shut your ****** mouth about it and never dared to accuse me again. You got owned, ****.

You chose not to respond to this:

As I said, you posted several days after my initial response which is why I missed your post. Anyway, it doesn't seem like there's anything worth responding for which everyone can see for themselves.

No factual response when I brought up facts about Ray Robinson's fight against Maxim.

Agreeing that the Walcott knockdown was legit and trying to act like you were just joking.

Saying I quit in an argument you, when I didn't.

Putting down great fighters by calling them clowns, bums, bumbeaters, gays, chickens and flinging personal insults directed at me left and right, the usual stuff from you to which I've responded more than enough times.

[RightCross94]

What I want to know is why does Slimey Limey hate Ray Robinson so much? Kind of pathetic really, and it's getting very tired and boring

[StarshipTrooper]

What I want to know is why does Slimey Limey hate Ray Robinson so much? Kind of pathetic really, and it's getting very tired and boring

He's just a scuzzy little troll who just gets his little two incher off on pissing people off. He locks onto the fighters that people admire and tries to rip them down.....he does the same thing under Princepoophead except he rips Frazier under that name. I ignored the turd a long time ago.

Poet

[Gettin Jiggy]

He's just a scuzzy little troll who just gets his little two incher off on pissing people off. He locks onto the fighters that people admire and tries to rip them down.....he does the same thing under Princepoophead except he rips Frazier under that name. I ignored the turd a long time ago.

Poet

And what do you think you're doing posting on one of my threads? Well it will be the last time. BYE Toffe Teeth

[princemanspoper]

He's just a scuzzy little troll who just gets his little two incher off on pissing people off. He locks onto the fighters that people admire and tries to rip them down.....he does the same thing under Princepoophead except he rips Frazier under that name. I ignored the turd a long time ago.

Poet

Um, Yes and you have still failed to provide any evidence linking me with slimey limey or any other user account on this forum as a possible alt.Give it up poet, You're a paranoid delusional old man who cannot take criticism of your favourite fighters yet you have no problem doing the exact same thing to other particular fighters