Ali vs. Louis- Tale Of The Tape (Comparisons)

[Yogi]

The only quote i take any note of is ALI's, only he knows what was running through his head. But you still dont get it do you, IF ALI wanted to quit... he would of... contemplation means nothing. Theres a bit of simple logic for ya.

Wait a second here...just on the last page weren't you saying that there in "no evidence suggesting he was going to quit"?

"Cut my gloves off. I can't see. We're going home." Cassius Clay yelled - page 194 of Angelo Dundee's 'I Only Talk Winning'.

"Clay didn't want to come out for the round at all. He told me later he was at the door of the Near Room--the place with the trombone-playing alligators and the screaming snakes. He said that his eyes hurt so much from whatever it was in them that he told Dundee to "cut the gloves off"." - page 104 of Plimpton's 'Shadow Box'.

What YOU don't get is that there is in fact very clear "evidence suggesting he was going to quit", including the words of both his cornerman and Ali himself. And both sources I cited up there describe how Dundee basically had to shove Ali back in the ring at the beginning of the fifth round..."I shoved Cassius forward into the ring" (Dundee says after describing a brief argument he had with Ali in the corner) and "Dundee finally got his fighter moving, pushing him toward the center of the ring" (Plimpton).

I didn't come into this discussion stating Ali quit, lacked heart or anything like that...I only came in when you made that "no evidence suggesting" comment.

[Heckler]

Wait a second here...just on the last page weren't you saying that there in "no evidence suggesting he was going to quit"?

"Cut my gloves off. I can't see. We're going home." Cassius Clay yelled - page 194 of Angelo Dundee's 'I Only Talk Winning'.

"Clay didn't want to come out for the round at all. He told me later he was at the door of the Near Room--the place with the trombone-playing alligators and the screaming snakes. He said that his eyes hurt so much from whatever it was in them that he told Dundee to "cut the gloves off"." - page 104 of Plimpton's 'Shadow Box'.

What YOU don't get is that there is in fact very clear "evidence suggesting he was going to quit", including the words of both his cornerman and Ali himself. And both sources I cited up there describe how Dundee basically had to shove Ali back in the ring at the beginning of the fifth round..."I shoved Cassius forward into the ring" (Dundee says after describing a brief argument he had with Ali in the corner) and "Dundee finally got his fighter moving, pushing him toward the center of the ring" (Plimpton).

I didn't come into this discussion stating Ali quit, lacked heart or anything like that...I only came in when you made that "no evidence suggesting" comment.

Right i conceed about the EVIDENCE. But i stand by my point, If ali was going to quit, he would of... he has a mind of his own and no trainer can override him.

[moondog0]

Ali was very young in that fight against Liston, I believe there was something on Liston's gloves that made Ali want to quit, (he couldn't see).
It was good Dundee pushed him out there, I wouldn't think Ali was a quitter, he just didn't give full effort in every fight until he was behind on the cards...

[sleazyfellow]

Ali was very young in that fight against Liston, I believe there was something on Liston's gloves that made Ali want to quit, (he couldn't see).
It was good Dundee pushed him out there, I wouldn't think Ali was a quitter, he just didn't give full effort in every fight until he was behind on the cards...

if he would of quit on his stool cause of his eyes burning i beleive he wouldnt of gotten a rematch against liston..but neways i heard in earlier threads that billy conn had a weak chin, thats bull...it took many hits from louis to put him down, the little tough irish bastard..but neways i take louis over ali just cause in his prime he was well rounded, threw a great left hook and ali could never deal with leftys, just factor in the other right hand of joes and he would have a decsion over ali or a late round knockout

[Kid Achilles]

Conn certainly did not have a weak jaw. He was also a big man for a light heavweight. 6'2" or so.

[Heckler]

if he would of quit on his stool cause of his eyes burning i beleive he wouldnt of gotten a rematch against liston..but neways i heard in earlier threads that billy conn had a weak chin, thats bull...it took many hits from louis to put him down, the little tough irish bastard..but neways i take louis over ali just cause in his prime he was well rounded, threw a great left hook and ali could never deal with leftys, just factor in the other right hand of joes and he would have a decsion over ali or a late round knockout

Ali didn't like the hook, but he could deal with it. Especially a 66-67 Ali, whom would get hit alot less with a left hook then he did following the layoff. Louis was open for the right cross, Alis bread and butter punch. Louis was technically superior, but i feel Ali's speed and movement would overwhelm Joe. Joe would also struggle with someone that used unorthodox means such as Ali. After a grueling fight, Ali KO 12.

[Brockton Lip]

Now that I think about it more, Ali would probably win by stoppage. Hes too fast and unorthodox for the lumbering, precise Brown Bomber.

[butterfly1964]

Now that I think about it more, Ali would probably win by stoppage. Hes too fast and unorthodox for the lumbering, precise Brown Bomber.

definetely ali wouldn't have that much trouble with louis.

[sykesf]

Clash of the Titans

Ali in his prime would stop Louis in his prime. Ali would use his superior hand speed, body movement and footwork. Infact Louis would struggle to hit Ali with a power punch in the earlier rounds. Louis never fought anyone the caliber of Ali. Plus Ali always performed better against power punchers except maybe Frazier. Foreman, Liston, Shavers, Bob Foster and Bonavena all hard hitters were easy pickins for Ali. Louis compared in a lot of ways to these fighters only he was a better rounded and complete fighter. I could see Ali stopping Louis on TKO somewhere between the 10th and 15th round. In a 12 rounder anywhere between the 8th and 12 round.

[JAB5239]

How Joe Louis Would Have Beaten Muhammad Ali!
By Monte D. Cox







In the July 1991 Ring Magazine I had a letter published giving four reasons why I thought Muhammad Ali would have defeated Joe Louis had these two all time great heavyweights ever met in their respective primes. These four reasons sum up how most modern boxing fans think of a potential Ali-Louis battle: 1) Ali had greater speed, especially of foot. 2) Ali had the ability to adapt and change his fight plan while Louis tended to be more robotic. 3) Ali had the better chin and successfully absorbed the bombs of some of boxing’s most dangerous sluggers. 4) Ali was never beaten at his best; his first loss came at age 29.

Having grown up as a fan of Muhammad Ali it is sometimes difficult to be objective. I felt a need to prove this popular theory to myself. I began an intensive study of the two great heavyweights particular styles by thoroughly studying films of both fighters, as well as the opinions of other knowledgeable historians and trainers. Within a year I published an article in the May 1992 Boxing Scene “Joe Louis: The Best Heavyweight Ever!" In this article I argued that out of all the heavyweight champions it was Joe Louis who most closely resembled the perfect fighter. I concluded the Louis-Ali match-up as a toss up that could go either way. After more years of study I now firmly believe that Joe Louis could defeat Muhammad Ali. The following describes the how and why.

Muhammad Ali has become such a legend that people think of him as invincible. One person wrote to me that Ali was a “demi-god”. I admit it’s pretty impossible to defeat a deity. However, Ali was not a god, but a human being and as such had human frailties. As Jack Dempsey once said “no man has everything.” Ali had a number of weaknesses as a fighter. He did not have an orthodox style and never learned the rudiments of classical boxing. Ali made many tactical errors in the ring. Ali did not know how to properly hold his hands, or how to duck (he pulled back or sidestepped), nor did he know how to parry or to block a jab!

Ken Norton’s trainer Eddie Futch said, (Anderson pg. 233), “The jab was a big reason Muhammad Ali never figured out why he had so much trouble with Ken Norton in their three fights.”

In the May 5, 1969 Sports Illustrated, in an article, "Clay-Ali: The Once and Future King", Ali demonstrated how he avoided a jab. He relied on judging the distance and leaning away as in the photograph left He didnt know how to block a jab! If you look at Ali on film, he held his right hand out to the side and did not have it in position to block a jab. That is why Ali had problems with certain fighters like Doug Jones and Norton, fighters with a good left jab could cause him great difficulty.

Norton consistently hit Ali with his jab because Ali didn't keep his right hand up to parry Norton’s counter jab. Ali leaned away from punches. He dropped his hands low. He threw a right uppercut from the outside and dropped his right hand every time before he threw it! This is precicely why Ali was vulnerable to the left hook througout his career. A thorough study of film reveals these flaws in Ali's style. These poor habits caused him trouble with quick handed boxers who had solid left hands.

Joe Louis said of Ali in his autobiography (Louis p 260), “Ali’s a great fighter, (but) he made too many mistakes, his hands are down a lot, and he takes too many punches to the body. I know what I’m talking about.”

Technically, Ali wasn't a very good fighter; it was just that his physical gifts (speed, reflexes, and chin) were so astonishing that he was able to get away with things that would have gotten most fighters beaten up. Some may argue he did end beaten up when his career was over. George Foreman noted on his web-site (www.georgeforeman.com) that after Ali’s speed diminished “it became apparent that he never really learned defense.”

So many Ali worshippers are under the impression that Ali was "unhittable" in his prime. This is a myth. George Chuvalo, a limited fighter who lacked both skills had sucess at times against a prime Ali with a body attack. Chuvalo who lacked both speed and hitting accuracy managed to catch Ali flush on the chin with a solid right cross in the 13th round. In both fights with Henry Cooper Ali was hit cleanly by a very average fighter. Even in their second fight Cooper managed to land a fair number of left jabs and hooks as Ali leaned away from punches before Cooper was badly cut.

Ali's tactic of leaning away from punches was considered suicidal by the old-timers. This with good reason, such a tactic could be exploited by a good feinter. Fortunately for Ali, the art of feinting has been an all but lost art since WW2, especially amongst heavyweights. Joe Louis, however, did use occasional feints to set up his devastating counter-punches. Caswell Adams of the New York Herald-Tribune wrote, March 31, 1935, "Louis can punch with terrific power...He can feint a foe out of position." By catching Ali coming back after leaning away from a feint, his counter-punches would land with double impact!

Ali's chin was among the best in heavyweight history, but no man’s chin is impregnable. Ali was nearly kayoed by Henry Cooper’s left hook. He was very fortunate the punch came at the end of the round. He returned to his corner glassy eyed and his trainer Angelo Dundee used smelling salts in the corner to revive him.

Ali also struggled against Doug Jones. The lesson from that fight is not whether Ali deserved the decision, but that a small heavyweight of modest ability was able to be competitive with him. Fighters with quick hands and good left jabs always caused him technical problems. Against Louis, Ali would be facing one of the fastest and most powerful jabbers in boxing history.

Now, consider the statement by Murray Goodman, (Boxing Scene. Spring 1995), that Joe Louis “could knock you out with a left jab.”

Historian Mike Silver wrote, (Ring Almanac, p 122, 1998) “There was kayo power in every one of Joe Louis punches, but the most important of all was the battering ram of a jab, which was equal in power to an ordinary heavyweights right cross.”