Tyson vs Holyfield - who of them is better fighter?

[Southpaw16]

I get really frustrated with Tyson fans, because they give Tyson the benefit of the doubt that no other fighter in the history of boxing gets. The Buster Douglas loss is discounted because Tyson had fired Rooney before the fight, and therefore wasn't in his prime since Rooney or D'Amato weren't training him. Have you ever heard of any other fighter being afforded that type of excuse? He wasn't in his prime anymore because he fired his coach?

You guys can tell where I'm going with this... I consider Buster Douglas to have beaten a prime Tyson. Buster Douglas beat him by standing in the center of the ring and fighting with him, not being bullied. Holyfield would have done the exact same thing, he would have taken Tyson to war and fought him. If Douglas could do it, Holyfield could do it.

I know the arguments are going to come that it wasn't a prime Tyson who fought Douglas, I don't buy it.

[La_Vibora]

I get really frustrated with Tyson fans, because they give Tyson the benefit of the doubt that no other fighter in the history of boxing gets. The Buster Douglas loss is discounted because Tyson had fired Rooney before the fight, and therefore wasn't in his prime since Rooney or D'Amato weren't training him. Have you ever heard of any other fighter being afforded that type of excuse? He wasn't in his prime anymore because he fired his coach?

You guys can tell where I'm going with this... I consider Buster Douglas to have beaten a prime Tyson. Buster Douglas beat him by standing in the center of the ring and fighting with him, not being bullied. Holyfield would have done the exact same thing, he would have taken Tyson to war and fought him. If Douglas could do it, Holyfield could do it.

I know the arguments are going to come that it wasn't a prime Tyson who fought Douglas, I don't buy it.

He was prime, but he just wasn't prime shape neither physically or mentally. Just watch the fight again, even the announcers noticed it before the fight even started. They said "this doesn't look like the usual menacing Tyson" right before they rang the bell. Mike was not in boxing shape, it was said he was busy going out ****ing Japanese girls. He also had an incompetent corner, they didn't even have an enswell to keep his eye open and instead used a condom filled with ice water, which is ridiculous. Regardless of this, had that fight gone down today, Tyson would have won, seeing how the refs today would have jumped in to stop the fight when Buster was still on the mat at the count of 9. It probably would have went down as one of Mike's best victories. In any case, Tony Tucker(who beat Buster) was a better fighter than Douglas, Mike beat him, and I definitely think Mike would have beat Buster by late TKO had he fought in shape and with Rooney or atleast a competent team.

When people say his prime ended with Rooney, they say that because his skills went with him, his jab and combinations were gone after that. He was just a brawler at that point. Its funny because at the time he fired Rooney I always felt he should have gone with Eddie Futch who I thought would understand his style best, and it wouldn't be until Mike linked up with Futch's protege Freddie Roach that we would see the head movement, jab, combos, etc come back. Unfortunately Mike was too old and doped out at that point.

[The Iron Man]

Okay, he was strong boxer with great handspeed.

And that's all.

I think the defense you speak of was vastly overrated. He looked good slipping punches from opposition that could barely throw punches. And he lost even that ability when Rooney was no longer around to drill it into his fat head. Where was his defense when the lowly Buster Douglas annihilated him? Or Evander? Or Lewis? Or Williams? Or McBride? And I don't buy that **** about him having a 2-year prime. How the hell could he a shot fighter at 23 or 24 years of age? Lennox Lewis was still kicking ass into his mid thirties.

That said, I have Tyson 3nd on my list of heavyweight power punchers, behind Marciano and Foreman and just ahead of Liston and Frazier and Shavers and Tua. (although I'm tempted to put Liston ahead of him) Tyson had the potential to be more with that freakish handspeed but his mental fragility/******ity did him in.

I'm sorry but this is truly a terrible post. To even think of using Lewis, Williams and McBride as examples is idiotic. Do people use Berbick or Holmes as reason to why Ali was a poor boxer? is Louis discredited as he lost to Marciano? Even Holyfield today look at the people he is losing to, but they will never be brought up when discussing his greatness!.
And another note, you have Marciano and Tyson ahead of Liston and Shavers on a POWER punching list!! that is just hilarious!

I would just like to make a side note for the general topic. Tyson was different to a lot of fighters in his mental state. He needed someone to keep him on the rails at first this was Cus then Jacobs and to some extent Rooney. Without these people around Tyson wasn't the same person and so wasn't the same boxer, the loss of trainers/managers effected Tyson more than any other boxer. There are some boxers who we associated with certain trainers and without them may of not became a success, Tyson is definitely one of these.

[Abstraction]

prime v prime.

Tyson

[Knighte]

I'm sorry but this is truly a terrible post. To even think of using Lewis, Williams and McBride as examples is idiotic. Do people use Berbick or Holmes as reason to why Ali was a poor boxer? is Louis discredited as he lost to Marciano? Even Holyfield today look at the people he is losing to, but they will never be brought up when discussing his greatness!.
And another note, you have Marciano and Tyson ahead of Liston and Shavers on a POWER punching list!! that is just hilarious!

I'm sorry but THIS post is terrible. Why is it idiotic to use Lewis as an example of why Tyson sucks? Lewis was OLDER THAN TYSON when they stepped into the ring. Tyson's fights with Evander and Lewis were carbon copies of his loss to Douglas, proving he was a moron incapable of learning anything from his previous fights.

And in terms of successful power punchers, I don't have a problem rating Marciano and Tyson tops. Marciano was an undefeated champ who many consider the pound for pound hardest puncher ever, and Tyson (as much as I loathe him) cleaned out one of the most useless heavyweight divisions ever.

[La_Vibora]

I'm sorry but THIS post is terrible. Why is it idiotic to use Lewis as an example of why Tyson sucks? Lewis was OLDER THAN TYSON when they stepped into the ring. Tyson's fights with Evander and Lewis were carbon copies of his loss to Douglas, proving he was a moron incapable of learning anything from his previous fights.

And in terms of successful power punchers, I don't have a problem rating Marciano and Tyson tops. Marciano was an undefeated champ who many consider the pound for pound hardest puncher ever, and Tyson (as much as I loathe him) cleaned out one of the most useless heavyweight divisions ever.

Age doesn't matter in terms of prime. If you look at the fighters of the past with similar style to Tyson such as Frazier, Marciano, and Dempsey, they were all considered past their best around the age 30-32. Add on his 3 year prison stint and that cuts off even more years off his prime. Tyson had a young man's style that wasn't meant to go late into his 30's. Lewis on the other hand was a big heavyweight who could make up for his dwindling athleticism and stamina with his size, Mike didn't have that luxury(plus he was doing drugs which no doubt took some years out of his body as well).

[PLATE]

I'm sorry but this is truly a terrible post. To even think of using Lewis, Williams and McBride as examples is idiotic. Do people use Berbick or Holmes as reason to why Ali was a poor boxer? is Louis discredited as he lost to Marciano? Even Holyfield today look at the people he is losing to, but they will never be brought up when discussing his greatness!.
And another note, you have Marciano and Tyson ahead of Liston and Shavers on a POWER punching list!! that is just hilarious!

I think you misunderstood the post. I ranked the power punches on what they accomplished, not how hard they hit.

And I stand by my decision to use Tyson's opponents as examples of his worth. You Tyson nuthuggers make me laugh, trying to justify away why your man took such a beating from both good and mediocre opposition alike. The man was a big fish in a small pond, and when he entered the lake he got devoured by bigger fish. Simple as that.

Did he live up to his potential? Admittedly not. He could've had a better record if he took care of himself between fights, but potential means jack **** in this world. I believe a champion should be held accountable for his losses whenever they occured, and that he should be judged on the quality of his fights. That's why Marciano is my favorite fighter. He beat everybody he faced (HOFs like Louis, Moore, Walcott, Charles), never lost a fight, and had the brains to retire on top. And if Tyson had a 2-year prime, that sucks dude. That doesn't cut it. I believe Tyson was ducking guys like Lewis and Foreman for a reason back in the day, the reason being he knew they would expose him.

[StarshipTrooper]

I think you misunderstood the post. I ranked the power punches on what they accomplished, not how hard they hit.

And I stand by my decision to use Tyson's opponents as examples of his worth. You Tyson nuthuggers make me laugh, trying to justify away why your man took such a beating from both good and mediocre opposition alike. The man was a big fish in a small pond, and when he entered the lake he got devoured by bigger fish. Simple as that.

Did he live up to his potential? Admittedly not. He could've had a better record if he took care of himself between fights, but potential means jack **** in this world. I believe a champion should be held accountable for his losses whenever they occured, and that he should be judged on the quality of his fights. That's why Marciano is my favorite fighter. He beat everybody he faced (HOFs like Louis, Moore, Walcott, Charles), never lost a fight, and had the brains to retire on top. And if Tyson had a 2-year prime, that sucks dude. That doesn't cut it. I believe Tyson was ducking guys like Lewis and Foreman for a reason back in the day, the reason being he knew they would expose him.

Okay. I'm going to jump in here for a moment. No one will EVER accuse me of being a Tyson nuthugger and in fact I'm a holy terror to Tyson KoolAid drinkers everywhere. That being said, Iron Man is NO Tyson nuthugger. He is a Tyson fan, yes, but nuthugger no. I've had very rational, very intelligent discussions about Tyson with Iron Man and he is thoughtful and rational in the points he makes. That's something NO Tyson nuthugger is capable of doing. While I agree that Tyson's idolatrous fans give him a bad name, please discern between the rational fans and the lunatic fan-boys.

Poet

[them_apples]

hard to say, the Holyfield that fought Foreman was a beast though, in superb shape. Styles make fights, I think holy has Tysons number. Sure Tyson wasn't at his best, but either was Evander.

i'm going with Evander. I'd pick a Prime Evander over a Prime Lewis to.

[StarshipTrooper]

hard to say, the Holyfield that fought Foreman was a beast though, in superb shape. Styles make fights, I think holy has Tysons number. Sure Tyson wasn't at his best, but either was Evander.

i'm going with Evander. I'd pick a Prime Evander over a Prime Lewis to.

Agreed.

Poet