Muhammad Ali a fraud?

[Kid McCoy]

An old wives tale. Ask 15 old (British) men and they will tell you the break between rounds lasted anywhere between 3 and 10 minutes. It's just one of those silly rumours that won't die, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Cooper himself has embellished the story twenty-fold over the years. But then he was always complaining about something. If it wasn't Ali and the split glove it was Ingo knocking him out when the sun was in his eyes or Harry Gibbs stitching him up against Bugner. Angelo Dundee, too, has made a lot of contradictory statements about the incident. But these are also the two who stand to gain most from embellishing the event. Cooper, because it lets him claim he was robbed of a chance to KO Muhammad Ali, and Dundee because it makes him look like a savvy cornerman thinking on his feet to protect his fighter.

I know a couple of blokes who were at Wembley that night, and none of them recall a 5-10 minute delay. It was officially timed a few years ago by a British boxing magazine as lasting 5-10 seconds. One would think that an unusual occurrence like a long delay between rounds would be worthy of comment, yet none of the next day's newspapers mention it. No doubt there was a brief delay, and there was a split in the glove, but I've seen nothing to suggest either were as significant as some claim.

[JAB5239]

As you said, Jab5239, nothing fishy in these fights.

From the thread "Do you think the Liston/Ali fights were fixed?":
According to his wife, a few seconds into the 2nd meeting Sonny realized he couldn't beat his opponent and just took an easy way out. Ali and Liston were supposed to clash in the autumn of '64, reportedly Liston trained very hard at that moment. But Ali had to visit the hospital (hernia), and the fight was postponed. Receiving the news, it seems like Sonny lost some of his spirit.
(And, Ali not walking to neutral corner, and referee Walcott subduing to Ring editor Fleisher's yelling at ringside, these three are as much to blame as Liston for the fight's short-lived existence.)

Foreman was well spent when flattened. Later, he blamed his corner for not holding him back to spare some energy. Well, had I worked in Foreman's corner that night, I also had urged him on. Because, we all believed he was unbeatable, and that Ali would surrender rather quickly.

And yes, tapes prove that Ali's glove in the Cooper fight was already torned before the knockdown.

What I disliked during Ali's second reign, and which has been an animated discussion, was that he constantly got away with holding his opponent back the head. But as he was allowed to and it worked for him, you can't point the finger at him, but the referees who showed the legendary too much respect and never dared warning him.

This is a very good post gridiron. To me, personaly, Ali recieved a lot of preferential treatment throughout his career. There are more than a few fights where he was on the recieving end of a close decision. The most obvious being the 3rd Norton fight. But hey, even the guy I rank first all time, Louis, got a few himself. No matter what, Ali fought the best comp in history at heavyweight. and even if one thinks he should have lost a couple close ones, he was never blown out until the very end. He was a great champion, and though I've argued his place (1st or 2nd) in the past, I really have no problem with others who put him first.

[gridiron]

it was Ingo knocking him out when the sun was in his eyes

Whether the sun was in Cooper's eyes or not, I don't know. But this KO is another example of a famous "phantom punch" like the Ali-Liston II, however never questioned.

Because, like Cooper, almost no one at the Johanneshov Stadium in Stockholm noticed the quick-delivered punch that settled the fight.
By mere chance, a lucky photographer snapped the precise moment when Ingo's hammer connected. The visitors at the Stadium could watch the photo in the newspapers the day after ... and so they saw, for the first time, what they actually had been seeing the night before.

[1SILVA]

Ali

This is a very good post gridiron. To me, personaly, Ali recieved a lot of preferential treatment throughout his career. There are more than a few fights where he was on the recieving end of a close decision. The most obvious being the 3rd Norton fight. But hey, even the guy I rank first all time, Louis, got a few himself. No matter what, Ali fought the best comp in history at heavyweight. and even if one thinks he should have lost a couple close ones, he was never blown out until the very end. He was a great champion, and though I've argued his place (1st or 2nd) in the past, I really have no problem with others who put him first.

Once again Jab, great rebuttal. Ali has had more movies made about him, books, is the most famous athlete on the planet, 19 title defenses, defeated every Heavyweight champ from Liston to Leon, had the greatest competition in the history of the sport. If he is a fraud, then boxing is a fraud. He carried the sport from 64-78. Three and a half years were robbed from him, yet he still is arguably the greatest of all-time. I am tired of seeing posts downgrading his career. Babe Ruth, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Jim Brown, MUHAMMAD ALI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gridiron]

Ali was the very first (Louis might be the exception, help me out with this) who hadn't a "shadow" following him, i.e. he never ducked one, he took on every available challenger.

Other long-time reigning champs had their "shadows": Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano. Ali hadn't, that's what made him (the) great(est). On this subject, tribute also to another great, Larry Holmes.

[1SILVA]

Ali

Ali was the very first (Louis might be the exception, help me out with this) who hadn't a "shadow" following him, i.e. he never ducked one, he took on every available challenger.

Other long-time reigning champs had their "shadows": Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano. Ali hadn't, that's what made him (the) great(est). On this subject, tribute also to another great, Larry Holmes.

Great poiny made. I don't believe Louis ducked no one either. Holmes ducked no one, and Lennox Lewis never ducked anyone either(the only heavyweight of his era that he didn't fight was Rid**** Bowe, but that wasn't caused by him ducking Bowe). Holyfield never ducked anyone either. I don't believe there was another long time reigning heavyweight champ that can make this claim. Yet no one can come close to the type of competition Ali faced. he faced everybody.

[JAB5239]

Ali was the very first (Louis might be the exception, help me out with this) who hadn't a "shadow" following him, i.e. he never ducked one, he took on every available challenger.

Other long-time reigning champs had their "shadows": Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano. Ali hadn't, that's what made him (the) great(est). On this subject, tribute also to another great, Larry Holmes.

I wouldn't say Marciano ducked anybody, there were just no great, prime heavies at the time for him to fight.

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE][QUOTE=1SILVA;4558176] Holmes ducked no one, I have to respectfully disagree with this. Holmes, one of the top 5 heavies all time in my opinion, missed a few guys that were deserving in that era. Tucker, Tubbs, Dokes and Coetzee come to mind. He should have also rematched Carl Williams and Tim Witherspoon. That said, he was a great fighter and should be recognized as such.

[1SILVA]

Ali

[QUOTE=JAB5239;4558292][QUOTE]

Holmes ducked no one,

I have to respectfully disagree with this. Holmes, one of the top 5 heavies all time in my opinion, missed a few guys that were deserving in that era. Tucker, Tubbs, Dokes and Coetzee come to mind. He should have also rematched Carl Williams and Tim Witherspoon. That said, he was a great fighter and should be recognized as such.

Never understood why he didn't fight Dokes as both he and Holmes were promoted by King. After Dokes was destroyed by Coetzee, King wanted the fight in South Africa, but if I remember correctly, Holmes refused to fight in South Africa because of their racist aparthied. Tucker was 29-0 before Holmes lost to Spinks, but only notable victory was a 10 rounder over a washed up Jimmy Young. Tony Tubbs was a fat slob who Holmes would have beat the hell out of with his jab alone. When Holmes abdicated his WBC title in 1984 and accepted the IBF's recognition, it was because he refused to fight Greg Page. Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas were two deserving fighters that he should have given shots to. His refusal to fight Page , I believe, had more to do with his problems with Don King at the time. An argument can be made for Holmes possibly ducking Thomas Witherspoon as Terrible Tim deserved a rematch after their May 1983 fight was a very close fight. Holmes lost his title to Spinks in his very next fight after Williams, so a rematch was not possible. So an argument can be made for Holmes ducking Thomas, Witherspoon and Page.

[joseph5620]

Cooper himself has embellished the story twenty-fold over the years. But then he was always complaining about something. If it wasn't Ali and the split glove it was Ingo knocking him out when the sun was in his eyes or Harry Gibbs stitching him up against Bugner. Angelo Dundee, too, has made a lot of contradictory statements about the incident. But these are also the two who stand to gain most from embellishing the event. Cooper, because it lets him claim he was robbed of a chance to KO Muhammad Ali, and Dundee because it makes him look like a savvy cornerman thinking on his feet to protect his fighter.

I know a couple of blokes who were at Wembley that night, and none of them recall a 5-10 minute delay. It was officially timed a few years ago by a British boxing magazine as lasting 5-10 seconds. One would think that an unusual occurrence like a long delay between rounds would be worthy of comment, yet none of the next day's newspapers mention it. No doubt there was a brief delay, and there was a split in the glove, but I've seen nothing to suggest either were as significant as some claim.

Good post. I have watched that fight several times and I timed the delay at a mere 6 seconds. Not nearly enough time to save a fighter truly on the verge of getiing knocked out.