Muhammad Ali a fraud?

[JAB5239]

I almost wonder if the Foreman vs Ali fight was in Zaire just to make it even quicker for George to Gas. Also the loosening of the ropes.

How would fighting in Zaire benifit ali if both are given the same amount of time to train? Foreman would gas quickly because he threw every punch as hard as he could. If both fought the same fight in Madison square garden, the result would have been the same.

As far as the ropes..........If you have read Thomas Hausers book on Ali you already know there are plenty of candid interviews with random people who had been around Ali and his camp at different times and through out his career. In one part of the book somebody touches on this subject (I can't remember who, maybe a reporter), and talks about how Dundee and someone else from the Ali camp actually tried to get the ropes tightened right before the fight. Now I don't know how true this is, but I have no reason to believe the ropes were intentional loosened since nobody in Ali's camp knew he was going to lay on the ropes the way he did.

[LondonRingRules]

How would fighting in Zaire benifit ali if both are given the same amount of time to train? Foreman would gas quickly because he threw every punch as hard as he could. If both fought the same fight in Madison square garden, the result would have been the same.

As far as the ropes..........If you have read Thomas Hausers book on Ali you already know there are plenty of candid interviews with random people who had been around Ali and his camp at different times and through out his career. In one part of the book somebody touches on this subject (I can't remember who, maybe a reporter), and talks about how Dundee and someone else from the Ali camp actually tried to get the ropes tightened right before the fight. Now I don't know how true this is, but I have no reason to believe the ropes were intentional loosened since nobody in Ali's camp knew he was going to lay on the ropes the way he did.

** The young man has a legitimate complaint, perhaps with an unfortunate thread title.

Nobody knows how true boxing is all the time. They can't even understand Valuev & Iggy/Holy, clearly exhibitions sold as title fights with the Russians wearing the cuffs to keep Holy "afloat" as they pass his legend around to pad out boxing records and gates.

The phenomenon of Ali cannot be confined to mere video. He's lionized and/or vilified for as much what he was out of the ring as in the ring.

Dundee is a terrible source of trying to establish objective reality. When asked to make a list of best fighters by weight classification, he lists mostly his own fighters for example. At any rate, can we imagine the outcries today if Oscar's corner was allowed to adjust the ropes and the ring to their preference on the eve of the Manny or Floydy bouts?

As regard to the Foreman fight, I thought it was long known George could not properly train for the delayed month of the fight because of the deep cut he'd suffered. No, not the same conditions since George was placed in abandoned army barracks, not being doted on hand and foot in lavish presidential quarters as was Ali.

Ali looks horrible in certain fights, certainly not of championship quality, and was allowed to fight with his own set of rules. It seems he was a magnet for controversy and specious results much of his career and paid a heavy price. So much written about, but most is cottage industry stuff.

Since the frail Ali is kept wrapped in cotton these days with only some few choreographed public appearances, any future efforts for the comprehensive Ali bio is going to have to rely on the substantial video archives and somehow give context to Ali's richly significant non boxing life that greatly influenced his boxing.

Might as well catch lightning in a bottle.

[gridiron]

As far as the ropes ... I have no reason to believe the ropes were intentional loosened since nobody in Ali's camp knew he was going to lay on the ropes the way he did.

Ali has said that George was a master cutting off the ring. Ali's strategy wasn't meant to be leaning against the ropes. But in the opening round he became aware of that every time George took one step, he himself had to take three. And he knew he would never survive the heat in Zaire under such circumstances.

The rope-a-dope tactics he swift to was very dangerous, though. Ali has revealed he came close to being stopped in the 5th round. Luckily for him, at that stage of the bout George's tank had just about gone empty.

[Floydmayweather]

I have to disagree i have watched some old fights of Ali and when he was going he was amazing, power, speed, everything. He did get away with some things but fighters still do it today just not in the public way Ali did. For example when Oscar fought Floyd he wanted smaller gloves and a smaller ring. As for Alis wins he resume is crazy. He has wins over Frasier 2x all time great and a great lose (if there is such a thing). He has fights against Norton, Cooper, Quarry, Bonavena, Floyd Patterson, all great fighters. He did have a few moments that were ifey like against Cooper with the glove. The Foreman fight he won fair and square, he took a bad beating to the body too. Foreman writes in books that that fight haunted him, he knows he lost, he was throwing crazy amounts of hard punches other fighters would have crumbled. He was said to pee blood after that. He had a few rough decisions and maybe an early stopage but usually he was overwhelming his oppenent. The second fight with Liston is the only real question to me. In the Ali biography it says that the mob somehow got involved, could be but i doubt ALi needed the help. In the first fight he worked Liston. peace

[them_apples]

How would fighting in Zaire benifit ali if both are given the same amount of time to train? Foreman would gas quickly because he threw every punch as hard as he could. If both fought the same fight in Madison square garden, the result would have been the same.

As far as the ropes..........If you have read Thomas Hausers book on Ali you already know there are plenty of candid interviews with random people who had been around Ali and his camp at different times and through out his career. In one part of the book somebody touches on this subject (I can't remember who, maybe a reporter), and talks about how Dundee and someone else from the Ali camp actually tried to get the ropes tightened right before the fight. Now I don't know how true this is, but I have no reason to believe the ropes were intentional loosened since nobody in Ali's camp knew he was going to lay on the ropes the way he did.

Because Foreman was already prone to gassing, and to dumb to realize the heat could tire him out. Ali, if you notice..is taking a break most of the fight, and only punching in spurts. also Ali came to Zaire before Foreman to get used to the heat.

just speculating, could be Ali was brilliant all along, I just find it funny the circumstances during that time that Ali would actually win that fight. Especially considering the shots he took in the body.

But alas, we don't know for sure - I cant discredit the man.

[JAB5239]

Ali has said that George was a master cutting off the ring. Ali's strategy wasn't meant to be leaning against the ropes. But in the opening round he became aware of that every time George took one step, he himself had to take three. And he knew he would never survive the heat in Zaire under such circumstances.

The rope-a-dope tactics he swift to was very dangerous, though. Ali has revealed he came close to being stopped in the 5th round. Luckily for him, at that stage of the bout George's tank had just about gone empty.

I agree with this. But as I said, none of it proves Ali's camp had the ropes loosened to employ this stategy. Of course Ali knew George would gas out. But the location and the circumstances had nothing to do with that. Ali was simply smart enough and tough enough to stay the course until the ko came. No doubt the heat played a part, but if Foreman didn't think he would have gotten the early ko he might have been better prepared. No funny buisness there in my opinion.

[JAB5239]

Because Foreman was already prone to gassing, and to dumb to realize the heat could tire him out. Ali, if you notice..is taking a break most of the fight, and only punching in spurts. also Ali came to Zaire before Foreman to get used to the heat.

just speculating, could be Ali was brilliant all along, I just find it funny the circumstances during that time that Ali would actually win that fight. Especially considering the shots he took in the body.

But alas, we don't know for sure - I cant discredit the man.

100% agree with you. But as I just stated, none of this proves any kind of conspiracy to beat Foreman. ali capitalized. Can't blame a man for that.

[gridiron]

As you said, Jab5239, nothing fishy in these fights.

From the thread "Do you think the Liston/Ali fights were fixed?":
According to his wife, a few seconds into the 2nd meeting Sonny realized he couldn't beat his opponent and just took an easy way out. Ali and Liston were supposed to clash in the autumn of '64, reportedly Liston trained very hard at that moment. But Ali had to visit the hospital (hernia), and the fight was postponed. Receiving the news, it seems like Sonny lost some of his spirit.
(And, Ali not walking to neutral corner, and referee Walcott subduing to Ring editor Fleisher's yelling at ringside, these three are as much to blame as Liston for the fight's short-lived existence.)

Foreman was well spent when flattened. Later, he blamed his corner for not holding him back to spare some energy. Well, had I worked in Foreman's corner that night, I also had urged him on. Because, we all believed he was unbeatable, and that Ali would surrender rather quickly.

And yes, tapes prove that Ali's glove in the Cooper fight was already torned before the knockdown.

What I disliked during Ali's second reign, and which has been an animated discussion, was that he constantly got away with holding his opponent back the head. But as he was allowed to and it worked for him, you can't point the finger at him, but the referees who showed the legendary too much respect and never dared warning him.

[Smokin'J]

Foreman said it himself, there was nothing going on.
So its not debateable

[gridiron]

[QUOTE=Second Coming;4542461]There is also maybe five or six instances of fights being stopped by the referee when Ali's opponent takes two or three punches but still looks capable of continuing and is not in any serious danger. And again, there's alot of times his opponents dramatically drop to the floor and roll around, or play dead while the ref counts to ten when there is no clear knockout punches thrown. In all of these fights the opponents seem to recover miraculously and have no problem congratulating Ali.QUOTE]

This other "shady" business: if you're outclassed and being assaulted, knowing this is a game I can't win, you either stay down or welcome the referee's intervention.

You could argue some of the decision wins Ali received, but that goes for every boxer.