Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[travestyny]

Discussion of promoters, managers, dates etc is on the table. Especially since this is a Jack Johnson thread which you have once again hijacked into a Dempsey thread to further your agenda. Too late to play the “it’s not about that” game.

You guys can try to cling to promoters offers but it makes no sense and you know it. If the promoters never offered the fight then the promoters never offered it.


Now please tell me. What does that have to do with Dempsey admitting that he would have never taken that fight, and saying himself that he reneged every time it was offered to him.


Don't run from it. Let's see what you have. Trying desperately to cling to promotors offers isn't going to prove anything, especially since my primary source is Dempsey, backed up by various quotations.


YOU YOURSELF know about the story that Kearns said they were looking for someone easier. Didn't that story come from one of the historians you talk up? So feel free to argue it's all fantasy now.

[travestyny]

Dempsey was referring to Langford when he was still coming up and inexperienced. If you believe every quote of Dempsey now let me know, because I have several I know you won’t agree with because they don’t align with your agenda here. You have proven nothing.

I believe it with proof.

You haven't shown any proof that it was only about 1915. My proof directly contradicts yours and comes straight from Dempsey's mouth. That's also supported by other sources that say the fight was offered and Dempsey wanted no part of it.

So what I see is all the sources being on my side and nothing from your side. Am I right?

[GhostofDempsey]

You guys can try to cling to promoters offers but it makes no sense and you know it. If the promoters never offered the fight then the promoters never offered it.


Now please tell me. What does that have to do with Dempsey admitting that he would have never taken that fight, and saying himself that he reneged every time it was offered to him.


Don't run from it. Let's see what you have. Trying desperately to cling to promotors offers isn't going to prove anything, especially since my primary source is Dempsey, backed up by various quotations.


YOU YOURSELF know about the story that Kearns said they were looking for someone easier. Didn't that story come from one of the historians you talk up? So feel free to argue it's all fantasy now.

Kearns saying that they were looking for someone easier was a tactful and kind way of sparing Langford an embarrassing defeat. In 1923 Sam was already blind in one eye and broken down by that time, he was desperate for a big payday. It had nothing to do with Dempsey being afraid of him at that point.

You are always taking quotes out of context and running with whatever news snippet supports your agenda. Funny you don’t take those same type quotes and articles about Johnson very seriously though. News articles get it wrong sometimes, quotes are often misquoted, even today. Imagine the liberties taken by the press in the early 20th century. I can post examples of boxing articles of that era with glaring errors and falsities. Only an idiot would think these random anonymous articles are the end all, be all.

[GhostofDempsey]

I believe it with proof.

You haven't shown any proof that it was only about 1915. My proof directly contradicts yours and comes straight from Dempsey's mouth. That's also supported by other sources that say the fight was offered and Dempsey wanted no part of it.

So what I see is all the sources being on my side and nothing from your side. Am I right?

You haven’t proven Dempsey was talking about fearing Langford for the entirety of his career. You’re taking everything he or Kearns, or Rickard have said literally and without context. So no, you’re not right. You’re unreasonable and irrational. Jack Johnson said he would draw the color line while champion…it came straight from Johnson’s mouth. Yet you made excuses for him and insist he was just joking or being sarcastic. Where does it say that anywhere? Or do you just assume that?

[travestyny]

Kearns saying that they were looking for someone easier was a tactful and kind way of sparing Langford an embarrassing defeat. In 1923 Sam was already blind in one eye and broken down by that time, he was desperate for a big payday. It had nothing to do with Dempsey being afraid of him at that point.

You are always taking quotes out of context and running with whatever news snippet supports your agenda. Funny you don’t take those same type quotes and articles about Johnson very seriously though. News articles get it wrong sometimes, quotes are often misquoted, even today. Imagine the liberties taken by the press in the early 20th century. I can post examples of boxing articles of that era with glaring errors and falsities. Only an idiot would think these random anonymous articles are the end all, be all.

Maybe it was Kearns way of saying that and maybe it wasn't. It doesn't change that Dempsey himself stated he was afraid of the man and that it wasn't about just one offer. Pretty sure I've proven that. So what is it that you are attempting to prove exactly?


I'm not running with anything. I'm telling you what the man said. YOU are saying he meant something else, but his quotation doesn't fit with what YOU are claiming. You didn't even provide any proof to support your claim. Seems like you are the one running with something for your own agenda, even though it doesn't support you. Right?

[GhostofDempsey]

You are desperately trying to shift the argument to Dempsey never being offered fights from promoters. That's not the argument, buddy, so try as you may, I won't let you switch it up. The argument is that Dempsey said himself that he was afraid of Langford, and that it wasn't about one instance of the fight being offered.

We know when this fight was discussed. In 1915 and then in 1918 when Sam was asking for the fight. At least.

If you believe that Dempsey is lying about Langford being offered and him declining, then make the argument that Dempsey is a liar I have no problem to you having to cling to that. But then make sure you show proof that he's lying about this fight not being offered. Multiple sources say he isn't so good luck with that. The story of Kearns saying they were looking for someone easier when this fight was offered is well known by now.


So, once again, besides my proof of Dempsey's own mouth, here is one of various other sources that Dempsey was challenged by Langford. So once again, multiple sources backing up my stance.


July 31st, 1918.
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Who cares about this article? So Langford wanted a fight with Dempsey, what about it? I already showed you Langford’s record in 1918, nothing there to suggest he earned a fight with Dempsey. Langford got knocked out by Fulton that year, same year Dempsey knocked out Fulton in 23 seconds.

Anyone can call out any fighter, that doesn’t make them entitled to a fight. McVey, Jeannette, Langford, Cotton all called out Johnson and never got their title shots. Look how many fighters called out your hero Mayweather and never got a fight. Freitas, Casamayor, Khan, Williams, Mosley at 135, Harris, Martinez, Thurman, and plenty of other deserving fighters.

[travestyny]

You haven’t proven Dempsey was talking about fearing Langford for the entirety of his career. You’re taking everything he or Kearns, or Rickard have said literally and without context. So no, you’re not right. You’re unreasonable and irrational. Jack Johnson said he would draw the color line while champion…it came straight from Johnson’s mouth. Yet you made excuses for him and insist he was just joking or being sarcastic. Where does it say that anywhere? Or do you just assume that?

I never said for the entirety of his career. I always said it was either in general or at least over multiple offers. Isn't that what he said himself?



Your bs about Johnson is pathetic. You ducked when I asked why the reporters all laughed, it was reported as a joke, and Johnson himself said it was a joke. Try for once to be real instead of desperately trying to fit an agenda. Once again...PROOF. I've proven it was a joke. Where is your proof of anything?

[GhostofDempsey]

Maybe it was Kearns way of saying that and maybe it wasn't. It doesn't change that Dempsey himself stated he was afraid of the man and that it wasn't about just one offer. Pretty sure I've proven that. So what is it that you are attempting to prove exactly?


I'm not running with anything. I'm telling you what the man said. YOU are saying he meant something else, but his quotation doesn't fit with what YOU are claiming. You didn't even provide any proof to support your claim. Seems like you are the one running with something for your own agenda, even though it doesn't support you. Right?

No you haven’t proven anything. Only that you have an agenda that you have been pushing for the last four years. I told you what Johnson said, and YOU are saying he meant something else, but his quotation doesn’t fit with what YOU are claiming. You can’t prove it otherwise. Stop accusing people of running from you while you hijack topics and deflect from Johnson’s color line.

[travestyny]

Who cares about this article? So Langford wanted a fight with Dempsey, what about it? I already showed you Langford’s record in 1918, nothing there to suggest he earned a fight with Dempsey. Langford got knocked out by Fulton that year, same year Dempsey knocked out Fulton in 23 seconds.

Try to understand what I'm saying to you. The argument is NOT about who would win or who was worthy of an offer even. You may very well be right about all of that. That doesn't change that Dempsey himself said he was too afraid to fight Langford.

Anyone can call out any fighter, that doesn’t make them entitled to a fight. McVey, Jeannette, Langford, Cotton all called out Johnson and never got their title shots. Look how many fighters called out your hero Mayweather and never got a fight. Freitas, Casamayor, Khan, Williams, Mosley at 135, Harris, Martinez, Thurman, and plenty of other deserving fighters.

Again, my argument was never that he was entitled to the fight. When did I ever try to make that argument????




You guys are desperately trying to shift the argument. I have to admit, it's pretty creative to say Dempsey never admit to being afraid of Langford because promoters never offered the fight. Not sure how one precludes the other. If anyone can explain that, please let me know.

[travestyny]

No you haven’t proven anything. Only that you have an agenda that you have been pushing for the last four years. I told you what Johnson said, and YOU are saying he meant something else, but his quotation doesn’t fit with what YOU are claiming. You can’t prove it otherwise. Stop accusing people of running from you while you hijack topics and deflect from Johnson’s color line.

Dude, I'm not the only one telling you Johnson meant something else. EVERYONE INVOLVED tells you he meant something else. He himself and the reporters who were present. Also the author of the book in which the story also appeared.


So what am I missing? I didn't even need them to know it was a joke. He said "like other actors" which made it clear. I wasn't the least bit surprised when I found all the evidence that I was right that it was a joke.


You are obviously getting upset again. It's a discussion. That it moved on to Dempsey should be fine. No one else is complaining except you.