Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[travestyny]

Langford fought 12x in 1918. When would he have earned a fight with Dempsey? After his two consecutive losses to Wills? Or after his 2 draws and a loss to Jeff Clark? He ended that year with a loss to Fulton, same guy Dempsey knocked out in the first round that year. Langford's decline can be seen at around that time.

Again, that's not relevant. The point is that Dempsey himself said he was afraid of him and reneged on the challenges from him multiple times.


But for the record, it would have been after he beat Jim Johnson twice and then beat Jack Thompson, who was also calling for a Dempsey match. Remember, this was before Dempsey was champion, so I don't think it's really about being seen as earning a chance. Also, pretty sure I saw one paper speculate that Dempsey would get the winner of Langford vs. Thompson. Langford won. Then according to Dempsey, apparently he "reneged" on an offer from Langford's team.


I will say this. Framing it the way you did, it's clear that 1918 wasn't too early for Dempsey. So I think the evidence leads to Dempsey revealing that he would have never faced Langford no matter what due to fear. These are the earliest mentions of this proposed fight and Dempsey clearly references multiple offers being reneged upon due to fear.

[Ivich]

I believe it is now governed by law to 33 1/3% - but then you end up with a trainer who gets 10% and God help you when the lawyers and accounts stick their hand out. Oh, and only then comes Uncle Sam.

I remember back in '71 they did some financial analysis on 'the fight' and stated that Frazier had the best deal in boxing because of the way the Phily buisness investors set him up. He was like a stock company and was going to get, before taxes, 54% of the purse.

Ali on the other hand had so many hands in his pocket that before taxes he was looking at 44%.

(Not sure if I got those numberd correct but sm certain it was low 50s vs. low 40s.)

Larry Merchant was one of the Cloverlay investors.

[Ivich]

- - Already figured U to be English.

U stated John Lester whooped Dempsey. That ain't what the prevailing press said, but it was a good, spirited fight deserving much better in the historical record than U gave it.


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Did you require a round by round description? Buy Pollacks book if you do.


"Newspaper split decision from New York City newspapers.
Two major papers gave it to Johnson, one to Dempsey and one had it a draw. The weights mentioned varied from one newspaper to another, but the ones listed look most probable."Box Rec


Jul 14 John Lester Johnson New York, NY ND 10 CBZ
The New York Sun gave the fight toJohnson
The New YorkTribune gave the fight to Johson
The Brooklyn Daily Times gave the fight to Johnson
The Brooklyn Daily Standard said Johnson had an easy time best Dempsey
The New York Herald gave a draw.
The New York Evening Telegram said it was an uninteresting draw.
The Brooklyn Daily Eagle gave it to Dempsey
The New York Age gave it a draw
"Some sporting writers said I won,I dont think I did,I think he licked me,I didnt know how to fight then and Johnson did.Yes I think he won and he taught me more that night than I ever dreamed of before." Jack Dempsey in a 1919 interview with
Damon Runyon

Happy Now?
It seems you're scraping the barrel looking for negative things to say about my posts.This most recent by you is a classic example of pedantry at it most blatant.

[Ivich]

Again, that's not relevant. The point is that Dempsey himself said he was afraid of him and reneged on the challenges from him multiple times.


But for the record, it would have been after he beat Jim Johnson twice and then beat Jack Thompson, who was also calling for a Dempsey match. Remember, this was before Dempsey was champion, so I don't think it's really about being seen as earning a chance. Also, pretty sure I saw one paper speculate that Dempsey would get the winner of Langford vs. Thompson. Langford won. Then according to Dempsey, apparently he "reneged" on an offer from Langford's team.


I will say this. Framing it the way you did, it's clear that 1918 wasn't too early for Dempsey. So I think the evidence leads to Dempsey revealing that he would have never faced Langford no matter what due to fear. These are the earliest mentions of this proposed fight and Dempsey clearly references multiple offers being reneged upon due to fear.

I've asked you to provide the dates of these,"challenges" the promoters that were prepared to put the fights on, the locations, and the purses that were being offered.So far you have produced nothing.Jack Thompson was a sometime spar mate of Dempsey's what in his record would indicate he would have made a financially lucrative opponent for Dempsey? You need some details ,facts and figures ,if you want to convince posters that Dempsey avoided Langford once he was near his prime.What you've done and so far ,no offence , its all you've done is fixate on a quote attributed to Dempsey and worry at it like a dog with a bone.You believe it unreservedly and without question that's your prerogative ,but do you also believe this Dempsey quote, "I was happy to fight Harry Wills but Tex didn't think it would draw.I could always beat those big ,slow moving fellows".
Because, in the words of the Frank Sinatra song Love And Marriage,"you can't have one without the other,"

[GhostofDempsey]

Again, that's not relevant. The point is that Dempsey himself said he was afraid of him and reneged on the challenges from him multiple times.


But for the record, it would have been after he beat Jim Johnson twice and then beat Jack Thompson, who was also calling for a Dempsey match. Remember, this was before Dempsey was champion, so I don't think it's really about being seen as earning a chance. Also, pretty sure I saw one paper speculate that Dempsey would get the winner of Langford vs. Thompson. Langford won. Then according to Dempsey, apparently he "reneged" on an offer from Langford's team.


I will say this. Framing it the way you did, it's clear that 1918 wasn't too early for Dempsey. So I think the evidence leads to Dempsey revealing that he would have never faced Langford no matter what due to fear. These are the earliest mentions of this proposed fight and Dempsey clearly references multiple offers being reneged upon due to fear.

Here you go again, clinging to this one quote where he was referring to the 1915/6 challenge. You are taking this way out of context and again ignoring relevant circumstances. Langford was losing often by 1918, and Dempsey had hit his stride. He also had a manager who controlled who he fought. You keep applying the same flawed logic to your arguments. Dempsey fought 20x in 1918 and had some very good wins.

[Ivich]

Langford also said that Jack Johnson was the greatest he ever saw, and that Dempsey was afraid of Harry Wills. You shouldn't leave that out.

Can you provide the quote where Langford says Dempsey was afraid of Wills,because I know he picked Dempsey to beat Wills.

[Ivich]

Would he have been ready for Langford in mid to late 1918? I already showed the proof that this wasn't just about 1915 or whenever. He stated that it was about the multiple times he was asked to fight Langford and he refused every time. I posted that info a page back or so.


As for the Jeannette situation, Demspey's statement that he would fight ANY TWO white men seems to be backed up by at least two sources. One being the NY Times article about the issue. In the NYTimes article, it even mentions that two White men stepped up to the challenge, and then the challenge was rescinded. So clearly it happened unless the NY Times had an agenda to make up the offer, make up two White men stepping up, and then making up the eventual backing out.

The other is straight from Dempsey's own article. It doesn't get more primary source than that.

In that NY times article Dempsey states he never avoided Wills ,do you accept that without reservation too?Or will you just doggedly cherry pick what suits your agenda?

[Ivich]

That's not really relevant to what I'm saying, though. All I'm saying is that the quotation was not regarding just one instance. It was regarding the multiple times he was asked to fight Langford. It sounds to me like he was saying he's afraid of Langford in general and didn't want to fight him.

Date these," multiple times," for us please.You need more than ,"it sounds to me" Who asked him to fight Langford? Which promoters?

[Ivich]

That's because you pull shlt out of your ass.

Did I say my source makes it clear that he prefers one over the other? When did I say that? I simply stated that he also said Jack Johnson was the greatest he ever saw, and that Dempsey was afraid of Wills.

If you don't recall it, maybe you have a poor memory. I'm pretty sure I posted it here before. Don't know what any of that has to do with being always right or wrong.

He said that about Johnson when he was in London to fight Tiger Smith in 1907 Dempsey was in short pants then!

[QueensburyRules]

Did you require a round by round description? Buy Pollacks book if you do.


"Newspaper split decision from New York City newspapers.
Two major papers gave it to Johnson, one to Dempsey and one had it a draw. The weights mentioned varied from one newspaper to another, but the ones listed look most probable."Box Rec


Jul 14 John Lester Johnson New York, NY ND 10 CBZ
The New York Sun gave the fight toJohnson
The New YorkTribune gave the fight to Johson
The Brooklyn Daily Times gave the fight to Johnson
The Brooklyn Daily Standard said Johnson had an easy time best Dempsey
The New York Herald gave a draw.
The New York Evening Telegram said it was an uninteresting draw.
The Brooklyn Daily Eagle gave it to Dempsey
The New York Age gave it a draw
"Some sporting writers said I won,I dont think I did,I think he licked me,I didnt know how to fight then and Johnson did.Yes I think he won and he taught me more that night than I ever dreamed of before." Jack Dempsey in a 1919 interview with
Damon Runyon

Happy Now?
It seems you're scraping the barrel looking for negative things to say about my posts.This most recent by you is a classic example of pedantry at it most blatant.

- - All U proved was was how liquored up the press was then. Not even JL ever said he had an easy time with Jack.

So the local press favored local boy Johnson over Bum Dempsey sleeping on park benches in Central Park and standing in soup lines. I'm sure this must mean the world to U, so enjoy.