Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[travestyny]

I don't want to go looney on you I just love the topic. It is the most interesting, convoluted, and controversial topic in the fight game.

I want to debate it - I want to be corrected - I want to be challenged - I just don't want it to be a win-lose thing.

I believe Dempsey afraid of Wills just isn't enough of an answer.

P.S. I was just breaking balls. I have always believed and always said that Wills would have fought Dempsey anywhere under any condition.

Wills got used like a pawn by everyone involved and that includes the guys who claimed they were championing his cause.

His denial at a shot is probably one of the top five injust acts in the history of the game.

But Dempsey scared just doesn't work for me, there's got to be more to the story and we have to keep looking deeper.

Also what you and Jab say that Dempsey had a moral obligation to make the fight - I can't wrap my head around that - a fighter gives up a large % for someone to make those decision for him - a fighter making those decisions for himself is like being your own lawyer. Not smart.

You must have a huge fear that Dempsey was afraid of Wills.


Because I have never heard anyone here claim that Dempsey was afraid of him. I've stated what I thought it was about, but I've stated plainly that I don't think he was afraid of him. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But that's not my position. Yet every time this discussion comes up, you guys keep bringing up this argument that I haven't seen anyone try to make.

[GhostofDempsey]

Just in case you don't get what I'm alluding to above.....

Dempsey admit he was afraid of old Langford, and wanted to fight two White men instead of old Jeannette.


Let that sink in, buddy

Afraid of Langford when Dempsey was just starting out and Langford in his prime, what’s your point? Langford called Dempsey the greatest fighter he had ever seen! Let that sink in! Jeannette was a publicity stunt, let that sink in too, hahaha!

[travestyny]

Nope, not superior. You can cry about this all you want, you’ve exhausted all your resources and come up with nothing definitive to prove anything. What a way to spend a Saturday night! LMAO!

Cry about it? Are you kidding me?


Trying to argue that Dempsey's resume is superior to Wills is a joke that doesn't need any sources.

Once again. He admit to being afraid of Langford and wanted to fight Two men instead of Jeannette. That says it all.



You're spending Saturday night right here too, moron. What kind of an idiot are you? lol. I'm buckling down to watch the fights. How about you?

[GhostofDempsey]

Ohhhh, Mr. Hypocritical used to be all about the historians...until they don't agree with him. Then we question how much weight they carry, huh?


Dude. All you do is run and avoid questions. You have never proven a thing here except that your posting in the history section is based on just as much emotion as your posting in the lounge, and that's not only terribly unfortunate but also terribly sad

Never ran from you or anyone. I post valid sources, records, videos, and first account testimony from fighters and people who were there. You post anonymous articles and spew insults when proven wrong. Dozens of members across this forum have had to call you out on this.

[travestyny]

Never ran from you or anyone. I post valid sources, records, videos, and first account testimony from fighters and people who were there. You post anonymous articles and spew insults when proven wrong. Dozens of members across this forum have had to call you out on this.

Dozens of members of the forum have called you out on your racism and bullshlt arguments that make no sense. Also your blatant delusions. Like Johnson never agreeing to fight Jeannette for the title and Dempsey not ducking Harry Wills


You claim you never run away? Where were you for that debate about the hand wraps? Did you show up?

[travestyny]

That thread was a joke to bust your balls and you know it.

So you're saying you wrote all of this for no reason? lol

Bad news for Dempsey haters.

It seems the truth is that Harry Wills (actually his manager Paddy Mullins) were frightened of the 1922 version of Jack Dempsey and quickly walked away from the fight when it was actually offered to them.

Paddy Mullins avoided a 1922 offer (see link below) by making demands he knew Kearns wouldn't accept -- two in particular: (1) that the NYSAC govern the fight; (2) that Dempsey must accept the highest bidder whether he like the bid or not.

Here is why Kearns would not accept: Tammany Hall politicians owned part of Will's contract and Tammany controlled Muldoon and the NYSAC. Kearns wanted no part of the NYSAC. They tried to strip Dempsey of his crown (but failed miserably).

Second Kearns wanted no part of Tex Rickard promoting the fight and Mullins knew that. By forcing Kearns to accept the highest bidder clause without a right of refusal virtually guaranteed that Rickard would be in the mix; Mullins knew Kearns would say no to both clauses.

Paddy Mullins knew by making those two demands Kearns would back out and then he could go back to pretending Wills was being ducked.

Funny, the challenger making unacceptable demands, and then announcing he is being ducked. Tommy Gibbons on the other hand said before the Shelby fight [when it was obvious that there would be no gate money for him] that the HW Championship was worth fighting for, "for nothing."

Mullins was setting conditions he knew were unacceptable to a popular champion and would then whine his guy was being ducked; Mullins really didn't want the fight.

It is obvious that Mullins was the one throwing up smoke, but maybe he was just being a good manager. Maybe he knew his guy didn't stand a chance against the 1922 version of Dempsey, but could garner other good fights by claiming his guy was being ducked by the great Jack Dempsey.

IMO a good move, better than having your guy get exposed.

It paid off, it likely got him the Firpo fight in '24.

Conclusion: it seems it was better for Wills to claim that he was being ducked, than it was to actually fight Dempsey.

Too bad Mullins didn't have the faith in his guy to take the fight in 1922, but that 1922 Dempsey sacred most men silly.

Read it for yourself! be sure to read clauses #3 and #4 as altered by Mullins. (His claim of 'a fight before the end of the year' as being his motive for not signing, is just more smoke for the press; read the altered clauses #3 and #4.

http://www.perno.com/Boxing/07-09-22.pdf

P.S. Bad news for Greb fans coming next!

[GhostofDempsey]

I don't want to go looney on you I just love the topic. It is the most interesting, convoluted, and controversial topic in the fight game.

I want to debate it - I want to be corrected - I want to be challenged - I just don't want it to be a win-lose thing.

I believe Dempsey afraid of Wills just isn't enough of an answer.

P.S. I was just breaking balls. I have always believed and always said that Wills would have fought Dempsey anywhere under any condition.

Wills got used like a pawn by everyone involved and that includes the guys who claimed they were championing his cause.

His denial at a shot is probably one of the top five injust acts in the history of the game.

But Dempsey scared just doesn't work for me, there's got to be more to the story and we have to keep looking deeper.

Also what you and Jab say that Dempsey had a moral obligation to make the fight - I can't wrap my head around that - a fighter gives up a large % for someone to make those decision for him - a fighter making those decisions for himself is like being your own lawyer. Not smart.

Notice they didn’t say Johnson had an obligation to give title shots to Langford, Jeannette and McVey. Only Dempsey was obligated to fight Wills, whose resume has more holes in it than a hunk of moldy Swiss cheese.

My contention is that after Dempsey signed two contracts to fight Wills, and monies promised to him weren’t delivered, he had enough of the Wills fiasco. Wills incessant lawsuits against Dempsey may also have been part of his reasoning for putting him on ice and making him pay for the harassment. We can all speculate until the earth spins it’s last orbit, but there are too many missing pieces to definitively say who is to blame, and quite honestly I don’t believe any one man is to blame. From Fitz, Kearns, Rickard, athletic commissions, politicians, promoters, venue owners, and more, there was a lot of blame to go around.

There is a huge double standard on here when it comes to fighters following their contractual obligations to their managers. Apparently Dempsey was supposed to disobey his and risk breach of contract, but other fighters like Johnson were just honoring their contracts or trying to get the most money possible. Even though we now see how Johnson reneged on his own demand of $30K to fight him, by taking on Battling Johnson, who lost twice to Jeannette that year and Jack turned down $20K to fight Joe. Now that’s a blatant duck, and it’s a shame no one wants to call that what it is, instead they give ole Jack Johnson a pass.

[Willie Pep 229]

Just in case you don't get what I'm alluding to above.....

Dempsey admit he was afraid of old Langford, and wanted to fight two White men instead of old Jeannette.


Let that sink in, buddy

See that'sthe kind of bait remarks thst makes me go crazy. Are you trolling?

Dempsey said he was on awe of Langford in 1916 when he was coming up. Dempsey didn't want to fight him. READ: scared if you like.

In 1920 a very different Langford approached Kearns and asked for a shot.

Kearns told him he was too good for Dempsey and slipped him some money. They didn't mean that.

Then they (Fitzsimmons and Kearns) gave him Langford a fight on the undercard (Miske defense) against Dempsey's sparring mate Bill Tate. Which he lost.

They took care of Langford when others were turning their backs.

Are you trolling? Why bash Dempsey about the 1920 meeting? He did the right thing. Obviously if they were going to take on any black fighter it was going to be Wills. But it looks like they didn't want the fight.

Why? Plagues me.

P.S. The damn venue for the Miske defense was named Floyd Fitzsimmons Arena. (Benton Harbor, Michigan) Was it named that in 1920 or subsequently? Just how powerful was this guy.

[Willie Pep 229]

So you're saying you wrote all of this for no reason? lol

Ok the only change I would want to make is this one line/word:

"It was better for Wills to say he was being ducked then actually fighting Dempsey."

TO

"It was better for Wills' people to say he was being ducked then to actually fight Dempsey."

I think that's pretty good food for thought. Thank you for posting it.

Farley was working the hell out of the 'duck' with the New York's black population and played it over mutiple elections.

Wills was doing celebrity refereeing for charity fights and Farley made him the crowned champion of New York. Thus the food for thought: all that goes away if Wills loses to Dempsey in'22. More politically valuable as a victim then a loser.

I said even the people who claimed they were supporting him were using him.

Just food for thought not saying it's so.

P.S. I thought there is another one about Wills ducking the Montréal fight that I posted.

[Willie Pep 229]

So you're saying you wrote all of this for no reason? lol

Damn you T I just rolled a blunt put it down to answer you and now I can't find it and I haven't stood up. Must of fallen between the car seats and I can't get out and go searching for it I'm in a casino parking lot; you bastard. Lol

Yea that's your fault too.