Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[LondonRingRules]

Johnson is one of the first to put offense and defense together and have a full arsenal of weapons.

** Blithering!

Way too many pioneers before Johnson that put the science in boxing. 'Bout the only thing he added to boxing science was improving the art of the clinch which he used to protect a soft chin and wear out and frustrate
smaller opponents.

His forte is as a historical figure that's been grown into myth. Now he's chopping down cherry trees, 'rasslin' grizzly b'ars, and ropin' tornados.

Burns was a good win, but no rematch which Burns wanted. Typical challenges from the established LH and MW champs as can be expected in that era, but forever stained by ignoring the challenges of the top heavy contenders of his day, a stable full of storied HOFers.

Don't mind putting him in the HOF, but criminy, he was beatable at various points, yet the ususal yazoos have him moonwalking on water and curing syphilus. Go compare the record of Sam Langford from the date of their only fight and until Johnson is beat by Willard. Johnson's pales to that of Jeannette and Langford.

Little Sam whooped every fighter he could find that beat, drew or otherwise KOed or KDed Johnson. In fact, Sam has a HOF career fighting and whooping those fighters alone. Give you something to think about while you're gilding nonsense.

[slicksouthpaw16]

** Blithering!

Way too many pioneers before Johnson that put the science in boxing. 'Bout the only thing he added to boxing science was improving the art of the clinch which he used to protect a soft chin and wear out and frustrate
smaller opponents.

His forte is as a historical figure that's been grown into myth. Now he's chopping down cherry trees, 'rasslin' grizzly b'ars, and ropin' tornados.

Burns was a good win, but no rematch which Burns wanted. Typical challenges from the established LH and MW champs as can be expected in that era, but forever stained by ignoring the challenges of the top heavy contenders of his day, a stable full of storied HOFers.

Don't mind putting him in the HOF, but criminy, he was beatable at various points, yet the ususal yazoos have him moonwalking on water and curing syphilus. Go compare the record of Sam Langford from the date of their only fight and until Johnson is beat by Willard. Johnson's pales to that of Jeannette and Langford.

Little Sam whooped every fighter he could find that beat, drew or otherwise KOed or KDed Johnson. In fact, Sam has a HOF career fighting and whooping those fighters alone. Give you something to think about while you're gilding nonsense.

I said he was ONE of the first( which he was) skilled fighters, not the first. He was so ahead of his time, and if he wasn't then he wouldn't have outmatched everyone skill wise at that time. he had different ways of pacing himself and catching punches on his glove, control distance and could end the fight anytime he wanted to. That was rare back then.

[Poet682006]

I said he was ONE of the first( which he was) skilled fighters, not the first. He was so ahead of his time, and if he wasn't then he wouldn't have outmatched everyone skill wise at that time. he had different ways of pacing himself and catching punches on his glove, control distance and could end the fight anytime he wanted to. That was rare back then.

slicksouthpaw I wouldn't waste my breath on this ignorant ****. This is a dude who's life-mission is to discredit Muhammed Ali and apparently he has Johnson in his cross-hairs too. Not sure exactly why mind you, but I notice he targets fighters that actually have skills and nuthugs idiots that just stand in the middle of the ring and brawl like fools.

Poet

[slicksouthpaw16]

slicksouthpaw I wouldn't waste my breath on this ignorant ****. This is a dude who's life-mission is to discredit Muhammed Ali and apparently he has Johnson in his cross-hairs too. Not sure exactly why mind you, but I notice he targets fighters that actually have skills and nuthugs idiots that just stand in the middle of the ring and brawl like fools.

Poet

Yeah , i remember when he tried to tell me that Langford had better wins than Ali did, and when i asked him to go through Langford's resume and tell me which ones, he didn't respond to the post. In another post he said that Ivan Calderon's footwork made Ali's look bad. Calderon has great footwork, but he forgets that Ali was a heavyweight that had footwork like a welterweight. That was one of the things that was so impressive about it.

[Poet682006]

Yeah , i remember when he tried to tell me that Langford had better wins than Ali did, and when i asked him to go through Langford's resume and tell me which ones, he didn't respond to the post. In another post he said that Ivan Calderon's footwork made Ali's look bad. Calderon has great footwork, but he forgets that Ali was a heavyweight that had footwork like a welterweight. That was one of the things that was so impressive about it.

I'm pretty sure the only footwork he's an expert on is slamming his foot in his mouth LOL!. Naw, in the days before I finally ignored the douche I tried to get him to actually substanciate his idiotic claims and got just as much silence as you did.

Poet

[Steak]

the fact of the matter is that Wills has wins over all the top guys that Johnson beat, and when he beat them they were pretty much just as good or even better than when Johnson beat them. yall have no answer to that, and dont even try to address the point, even when thats the thing that matters most.

and how was he 'way ahead of his time' when he learned a lot of his skills from Choynski? apparently, these skills had already been developed partly.

and if we are going to give huge amounts of credit for developing boxing, then why arent guys like Abe Attell, Joe Walcott, Jack OBrien etc rated at the very top of their divisions? their styles must have been waaaay ahead of their time, and they fought before Johnson did I believe. hell, why dont we rate John Sullivan really high? he put down the fundamentals for gloved heavyweights boxers, Im sure he had a huge influence on the progression of boxing skills, much bigger than Johnson.

was Johnson an important and talented fighter? absolutely. but his legacy has been blown out of proportions because of his controversy and popularity(negatively popularity, but he was very well known).

I mean really, yall talk about how impressive it was for him as a black man to become champ, but Dixon did it way before him, and he doesnt he much credit at all nowadays. I understand that heavyweight wasnt as important as featherweight, but I doubt Dixon had an easy time getting a title shot himself. I dislike these double standards.

[JulioCesaChavez]

Jack Johnson is a pioneer and a historic figure, even though he was no Ali he deserves respec' for breaking down barriers. Plus he is dead so leave him alone.

[Steak]

Jack Johnson is a pioneer and a historic figure, even though he was no Ali he deserves respec' for breaking down barriers. Plus he is dead so leave him alone.

of course I respect Johnson, but he gets a little too much credit for what hes done compared to how much credit someone like Wills does.

and he hardly broke down barriers, the guy pretty much built new ones for other blacks by making blacks look bad and for refusing to allow black fighters to fight him.

[LondonRingRules]

i remember when he tried to tell me that Langford had better wins than Ali did, and when i asked him to go through Langford's resume and tell me which ones, he didn't respond to the post.

** I don't normally bother too much with the 8th grade brigade.

It's good that you got your little glee club to fallback on for support, but your question could be easily answered by reviewing boxrec which anyone can do. Of course you need to know basic math and numbers to figure this stuff out which may be beyond the average 8th grader, so here it is condensed for you.

Sam was 16-1-6 when he beat his first HOFer, Joe Gans, 123-7-5 and 11th on Ibro p4p list. Now Ali was around the same development when he beat Moore, 17th on Ibro, but Moore was also 50+ yrs old at the very end of his career. Gans went on to beat more top contenders of his day, having his greatest moment in the first superfight in Nevada by Tex Ritter when he beats HOF great Battling Nelson in a 40+ rd classic on the 4th of July.

Ali, indeed, no raw up and coming prospect I can think of has a greater victory on his record, and that's just for starters for Sam. Ali goes 9-3 against Ibro mentioned fighters compared to Langford's 14-6-13 to the point of Jack Johnson's defeat by Willard. Half of those fights are against naturally bigger, stronger greats. By then he's half blind and his record starts to reverse and he finishes 23-19-17-4, but put another way, Langford fought more fights against Ibro fighters alone as Ali has fights period.

His last fight against an Ibro fighter is against future middleweight great Tiger Flowers who 40 yr old Sam flattens by the 2nd rd in spite of seeing only shadows he was so blind.

Kid, I don't care if you rank Johnson in the top 10 heavies or big up Ali, but don't ever get crossed up with Sam Langford doing so unless you got someone to change out your diapers.

[slicksouthpaw16]

** I don't normally bother too much with the 8th grade brigade.

It's good that you got your little glee club to fallback on for support, but your question could be easily answered by reviewing boxrec which anyone can do. Of course you need to know basic math and numbers to figure this stuff out which may be beyond the average 8th grader, so here it is condensed for you.

I looked at boxrec, and i didn't see anything that says he beat better fighters than Ali did. He was a great fighter and was one of the most underrated of any era, but by no means does he beat the opposition that Ali beat.

Sam was 16-1-6 when he beat his first HOFer, Joe Gans, 123-7-5 and 11th on Ibro p4p list. Now Ali was around the same development when he beat Moore, 17th on Ibro, but Moore was also 50+ yrs old at the very end of his career. Gans went on to beat more top contenders of his day, having his greatest moment in the first superfight in Nevada by Tex Ritter when he beats HOF great Battling Nelson in a 40+ rd classic on the 4th of July.

Ali, indeed, no raw up and coming prospect I can think of has a greater victory on his record, and that's just for starters for Sam. Ali goes 9-3 against Ibro mentioned fighters compared to Langford's 14-6-13 to the point of Jack Johnson's defeat by Willard. Half of those fights are against naturally bigger, stronger greats. By then he's half blind and his record starts to reverse and he finishes 23-19-17-4, but put another way, Langford fought more fights against Ibro fighters alone as Ali has fights period. His last fight against an Ibro fighter is against future middleweight great Tiger Flowers who 40 yr old Sam flattens by the 2nd rd in spite of seeing only shadows he was so blind.

His won over Gans was a great one, but explain to me how that one win surpasses everyone that Ali beat? Ali only had about 15 fights when he beat Moore and even though Archie was clearly past his prime, he got his first shot at the light heavyweight title( his first title shot) at the age of 39, so he peaked late and he was on a winning streak(coming off of wins such as Pastrano, Rinaldi ect) at the time of his loss to Ali. In his 17th fight he beat the experienced Doug Jones, who consider one of the most underrated contenders of that era and was coming off of wins of Folley and Foster. It was a good win over an experienced veteran. Also, who is to say that Gans wasn't as prime his prime as Moore was? He had 135 fights and had been in some hard fights.

It took Ali up to post exile to finally lose, and that was to an unbeaten Frazier, and many heavyweights would have loss to that version as well, and not only did Ali avenge it but he did it two times and with the last one being by stoppage. That's something that Langford couldn't claim, because as great as he is even in his prime he had quite a few losses and stoppage ones at that. Ali was never stopped in his entire career, even when he was 200 years old fighting a prime Holmes. It was more of a corner retirement thing.

Another thing is that if you include the win that Langford had over Gans, then you might as well talk about the win that Johnson had over Sam because Langford was 35-4-16 at the time had had already beaten experienced fighters and was on his way up.

Kid, I don't care if you rank Johnson in the top 10 heavies or big up Ali, but don't ever get crossed up with Sam Langford doing so unless you got someone to change out your diapers.

You have an agenda against both of them, and you don't hide it very well. Its a shame how you boost up Calderon and others without mentioning Ali and Johnson, who i both rank in my top 5 greatest heavyweights. As i said, Langford is one of the greatest fighters of all time and probably the second greatest puncher, but he did not beat the kind of fighters that Ali beat or the way that he beat them.