Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[Kid McCoy]

It took Ali up to post exile to finally lose, and that was to an unbeaten Frazier, and many heavyweights would have loss to that version as well, and not only did Ali avenge it but he did it two times and with the last one being by stoppage. That's something that Langford couldn't claim, because as great as he is even in his prime he had quite a few losses and stoppage ones at that. Ali was never stopped in his entire career, even when he was 200 years old fighting a prime Holmes. It was more of a corner retirement thing.

Langford was past his peak, half-blind and about 180 fights into his career when he suffered most of his stoppage losses. Make Ali fight 15-20 bouts with Foreman, Norton and Frazier, as Langford did with Wills, Jeannette and McVey, all within a few months of each other, and he'd have a few more losses (even KO ones) on his record too.

[slicksouthpaw16]

Langford was past his peak, half-blind and about 180 fights into his career when he suffered most of his stoppage losses. Make Ali fight 15-20 bouts with Foreman, Norton and Frazier, as Langford did with Wills, Jeannette and McVey, all within a few months of each other, and he'd have a few more losses (even KO ones) on his record too.

Well that's based on opinion. We can only go by the facts that are there, and that is a prime Ali has never been stopped and hes beaten his share of all of famers too, even in trilogies. Langford in his hay day was stopped twice, once by Peter Jackson and another by Harry Wills. Another thing is that Langford was blind in one eye for most of his fights, and he didn't become fully blind until after he retired.

Also, i have always defended the great fighters of that era and the reason why they had so many losses, however Ali in his prime didn't get hit much and even when he noticeably slowed down and fighting the best and dangerous fighters of that time like ( Frazier, Foreman, Ellis, Shavers, Lyle ect) he did not get stopped.

[Yogi]

Langford in his hay day was stopped twice, once by Peter Jackson and another by Harry Wills.

I'm assuming you are meaning the losses to Jackson and Jeannette earlier in his career, correct? I would hope so, because any stoppages later in his career when he was fat and blind would have been some time after his "hay day". Even those early stoppage losses could be argued as happening a couple of years before his 'hay day', as he was reported to have improved much from then til his real 'hay day' between apx 1908 and 1912 (after that you'll start seeing him being refered to as "untrained", "overweight", "fat", etc. in the papers reporting on his fights). Even Johnson himself counted as one of those acknowledging his significant improvement from 1906 til the time he was supposed to fight him in 1909.

Anyways...

"Ali was never stopped in his entire career. It was more of a corner retirement thing."

That's what you said about Ali, Slickster, and that would have also been the case with Langford in those losses to Jackson and Jeannette earlier in his career.

I don't know if it was because of having his eyes cut up, or more likely, because he had them swelled up, but the loss to Jeannette was also a corner retirement after the 8th round with the reports out of the fight's location stating that Langford was "scarcely able to see" by the end of the fight. He was applauded for his "gameness" and "hung on tenaciously" in the fight, and also was reported to have knocked Jeannette down along the way before "his physical condition would no longer permit of his continuing". However, like I said, that was entirely a loss via corner retirement, which, according to your statement on Ali, doesn't really count as a real stoppage apparently.

And the loss to Jackson? Well, that one was described as such by the author of the recent Langford bio, Clay Moyle;

"Sam Langford suffered a technical knockout to Young Peter Jackson in Southbridge, Massachusetts, under somewhat mysterious circumstances. Sam sat down on the stool in the fifth round and refused to continue. He declared that he had been struck a low blow and injured, but the referee claimed not to have witnessed it and proceeded to count him out while he remained in his corner. Many believed that Sam's contentions must have been correct, as he had nothing to fear from Young Peter and should have been able to put him away."

I would like to have a source from the time describing the fight, but that is one that I've never found a single mention of during my searches through the papers of the time. Moyle's description does make sense, though, as I've read other fights between the two from the time, and Jackson's whole style in fighting Langford was reportedly to have been to crouch down low, look to engage in clinches, and throw to the body of Sam while they came together in those. Very little in the way of any outside work was said to have been done by Jackson in those fights with Langford, who was described as having a big advantage when there was space and distance between them.

[Kid McCoy]

Well that's based on opinion. We can only go by the facts that are there, and that is a prime Ali has never been stopped and hes beaten his share of all of famers too, even in trilogies. Langford in his hay day was stopped twice, once by Peter Jackson and another by Harry Wills. Another thing is that Langford was blind in one eye for most of his fights, and he didn't become fully blind until after he retired.

Also, i have always defended the great fighters of that era and the reason why they had so many losses, however Ali in his prime didn't get hit much and even when he noticeably slowed down and fighting the best and dangerous fighters of that time like ( Frazier, Foreman, Ellis, Shavers, Lyle ect) he did not get stopped.

So a few stoppage losses in a 300+ fight career compromising some 60 fights against fellow Hall of Famers alone, as well as plenty in between against Jimmy Ellis-level contenders, puts Ali ahead of Langford? Ali has one stoppage loss in his career. Plenty of guys were never stopped, James Toney, Pancho Villa, Rocky Marciano, Marvin Hagler, Mike McCallum, Pete Sanstol, Barney Ross, Ismael Laguna. George Chuvalo was never knocked down in 93 fights. Are they all better then Ali?

[slicksouthpaw16]

I'm assuming you are meaning the losses to Jackson and Jeannette earlier in his career, correct? I would hope so, because any stoppages later in his career when he was fat and blind would have been some time after his "hay day". Even those early stoppage losses could be argued as happening a couple of years before his 'hay day', as he was reported to have improved much from then til his real 'hay day' between apx 1908 and 1912 (after that you'll start seeing him being refered to as "untrained", "overweight", "fat", etc. in the papers reporting on his fights). Even Johnson himself counted as one of those acknowledging his significant improvement from 1906 til the time he was supposed to fight him in 1909.

Anyways...

"Ali was never stopped in his entire career. It was more of a corner retirement thing."

That's what you said about Ali, Slickster, and that would have also been the case with Langford in those losses to Jackson and Jeannette earlier in his career.

I don't know if it was because of having his eyes cut up, or more likely, because he had them swelled up, but the loss to Jeannette was also a corner retirement after the 8th round with the reports out of the fight's location stating that Langford was "scarcely able to see" by the end of the fight. He was applauded for his "gameness" and "hung on tenaciously" in the fight, and also was reported to have knocked Jeannette down along the way before "his physical condition would no longer permit of his continuing". However, like I said, that was entirely a loss via corner retirement, which, according to your statement on Ali, doesn't really count as a real stoppage apparently.

And the loss to Jackson? Well, that one was described as such by the author of the recent Langford bio, Clay Moyle;

"Sam Langford suffered a technical knockout to Young Peter Jackson in Southbridge, Massachusetts, under somewhat mysterious circumstances. Sam sat down on the stool in the fifth round and refused to continue. He declared that he had been struck a low blow and injured, but the referee claimed not to have witnessed it and proceeded to count him out while he remained in his corner. Many believed that Sam's contentions must have been correct, as he had nothing to fear from Young Peter and should have been able to put him away."

I would like to have a source from the time describing the fight, but that is one that I've never found a single mention of during my searches through the papers of the time. Moyle's description does make sense, though, as I've read other fights between the two from the time, and Jackson's whole style in fighting Langford was reportedly to have been to crouch down low, look to engage in clinches, and throw to the body of Sam while they came together in those. Very little in the way of any outside work was said to have been done by Jackson in those fights with Langford, who was described as having a big advantage when there was space and distance between them.

Good post. I should start bookmarking some of this stuff. One thing that caught my attention though was that Sam was blind in one eye for a lot( if not all) of his fights, and was still winning a lot of those fights as well, which is why i i don't understand why it is such an issue when he gets stopped. Holmes was holding back against Ali so he wasn't busted up badly, it was just a case where a great fighter had nothing left and his corner realizing it. Langford as you stated, was possibly cut and beaten, so you know its a legit stoppage especially since there were not quick stoppage referee's in that era.

[slicksouthpaw16]

So a few stoppage losses in a 300+ fight career compromising some 60 fights against fellow Hall of Famers alone, as well as plenty in between against Jimmy Ellis-level contenders, puts Ali ahead of Langford? Ali has one stoppage loss in his career. Plenty of guys were never stopped, James Toney, Pancho Villa, Rocky Marciano, Marvin Hagler, Mike McCallum, Pete Sanstol, Barney Ross, Ismael Laguna. George Chuvalo was never knocked down in 93 fights. Are they all better then Ali?

I didn't say anything about Ali being better than Langford because he was never stopped. I brought that up because it adds on to his accomplishments, especially since he has faced the biggest hitters of that era and was NEVER stopped even in the trilogies. Holmes didn't even stop Ali, it was more of a corner retirement. I said that Ali beat better opposition than Langford, which he did. Hes a three time heavyweight champion and he beat about 3 top 10 greatest heavyweights of all time and a lot of hall of famers. Could Sam claim hes the greatest heavyweight of all time and dominated a single division in the best era of that division?

[Steak]

if beating McVey, Jeanette and Stanley Ketchel can make Jack Johnson a top 3 heavyweight of all time, then surely a natural Welterweight beating them + Gans, Jack O'Brien and Harry Wills + drawing with Joe Walcott would make him better than Ali on the ATG scale.

[slicksouthpaw16]

How many of them were in their prime or champions at the time? Ali was the first to beat Frazier, the first to beat Foreman and the only one to beat Liston during his reign and only lost to Frazier when he was close to his prime( which he avenged twice) and also beat Foster, Patterson and Moore( which is just as good as Langford's win over Gans and Wills). Another thing is that Wills fought Langford 22 times, and went 6-2 with 14 no decisions so Sam lost more than he won in that trilogy.

On all time great listings i have seen, and every sports show that i have seen that was doing a countdown on the all time greats in order, none has had Langford ahead of Ali.

[Kid McCoy]

I didn't say anything about Ali being better than Langford because he was never stopped. I brought that up because it adds on to his accomplishments, especially since he has faced the biggest hitters of that era and was NEVER stopped even in the trilogies. Holmes didn't even stop Ali, it was more of a corner retirement. I said that Ali beat better opposition than Langford, which he did. Hes a three time heavyweight champion and he beat about 3 top 10 greatest heavyweights of all time and a lot of hall of famers. Could Sam claim hes the greatest heavyweight of all time and dominated a single division in the best era of that division?

Then I don't see what the point of bringing it up was. Sam got stopped more times than Ali, but as noted mostly at the tail end of his career. He also had five times as many fights, about four times as many KOs, more fights against Hall of Famers, more wins against Hall of Famers. He didn't dominate one division, he dominated several, so well in fact that numerous champions wouldn't face him. This despite him being not much more than a middleweight at his peak. What would Ali's standing be now if he never got a title shot? Like I said, make Ali fight Foreman, Frazier and Norton 15-20 times over a ten year period and he'd have a lot more Ls and stoppages on his record too.

Young Langford beating Joe Gans, top 20 p4p and up there with Duran and Benny Leonard for being the greatest lightweight ever, is the equivalent of young Cassius Clay beating a prime Joe Louis. Foreman and Frazier, though great, were not on his level. I'd be interested to know why you think Ali beating 50 year-old Archie Moore is "just as good as" Langford beating Gans.

In saying that Langford lost the series with Wills, bear in mind that Wills was both younger and bigger, and that Langford was well over the hill for most of their fights - he was nearly 40 when they last met, older than Ali was when he faced Holmes.

Imo it's also pretty self-defeating to big up Ali over Langford with the "three-time champion" line, since it means acknowledging his loss to Leon Spinks, who had seven pro fights to his name and is arguably the worst heavyweight champ ever.

[Steak]

How many of them were in their prime or champions at the time? Ali was the first to beat Frazier, the first to beat Foreman and the only one to beat Liston during his reign and only lost to Frazier when he was close to his prime( which he avenged twice) and also beat Foster, Patterson and Moore( which is just as good as Langford's win over Gans and Wills). Another thing is that Wills fought Langford 22 times, and went 6-2 with 14 no decisions so Sam lost more than he won in that trilogy.

On all time great listings i have seen, and every sports show that i have seen that was doing a countdown on the all time greats in order, none has had Langford ahead of Ali.

How am I supposed to know? I never saw them fight, I couldnt tell you when their primes were.

what I can say is that Jack Johnson went to a draw with Jack O'Brien, and two years later Langford knocked him out.
Langford beat Ketchel less than a year after his last Middeweight title fight, also less than a year after Johnson him beat him(after being dropped by him).
Johnson beat McVea when Vea was still a teenager, Langford and Wills beat him in his mid through late 20s.
Gans went on to beat Battling Nelson, one of his most important fights.

all Im saying is that if Johnson's wins make him a top 3 heavyweight of all time, and that a welterweight (Langford) beat most of his top wins, then I would think that those wins would be better than Ali's on a p4p scale.