Was ali as good as they say?

[butterfly1964]

The reason why Ali was so good is that he was adaptable. If one thing didn't work he could try another. Guys like Tyson and Louis were great at what they did, but they could change course if they had to. If one thing didn't work, they were sunk! Ali is different. Fastest pair of legs and hands, granite chin, great jab, size, and great conditioning is what made Ali great and IMO the greatest of all-time!

[BKM-]

Fight better fighters for one. Liston had one of the three best jabs in Heavyweight history for second, while Tyson's jab was a range finder at best. Third, Liston wrote the book on intimidation while Tyson mearly copied pages from it. Fourth, while no one knows his true age, it's estimated by more than a few boxing historians that Sonny was around 40 when he one the Heavyweight title: By comparison Tyson was getting his ass kicked by Kevin McBride in his mid 30s. Finally, Sonny Liston was an all-time great and Mike Tyson is a near great who ranks below Larry Holmes, Evander Holyfield, and Lennox Lewis among the top Heavyweights of the past 25 years. In consolation, he DOES rank ahead of Rid**** Bowe.....barely.

Poet

On point about the jab even though Tyson had much shorter arms so it is only logical that Liston had the better jab. However, you won't see Tyson's left hook and right uppercut too low on the all time great punches list. Especially as an all around puncher. One of the fastest of all time, one of the most effective etc. IMO Tyson is ahead of Liston on punching ability.

Second, Foreman also "copied" the intimidation, this doesn't matter at all and has no real argument on who's better/greater.

Third, Mike Tyson was the type of fighter that didn't last in the long run because of his style. You know about this like I do, so Liston having a longer career because of his style also does not prove who is the better man. I'll also add the fact that Tyson was fighting much bigger and phisically stronger(pushing, clinches etc) fighters while Liston was the giant of his time beating up on smaller opponents(Wich I take no credit away from Liston, but this is an important factor when we're comparing Tyson who held this disadvantage troughout his career).

It's hard to say who was the greater fighter. Liston had advantages over his opponents with fear and size. Tyson only with fear, yet many fought back(Also the case with Sonny Liston). Liston lost the title quitting on his stool(Yes, Tyson has also quit but that was at the end of his career, he never did it when he was the Champ, and he also didn't blind his opponent. IMO Tyson had the bigger heart), while Tyson fought till the end almost knocking Buster Douglass out. Liston's best win is better than Tyson's best win. Liston did maintain his skills 'till the end of his career while Tyson was becoming more and more of a puncher. Very similar fighters if you think about it.

[BKM-]

frazier lifted buster mathis off the canvas with body shots (mathis looked like a tub of lard though). Frazier is better in the ATG list, but in a head to head match up tyson would pull a foreman on frazier and knock him down a bunch, but tyson is nowhere near as tough,and doesnt have fraziers chin or heart.

Lifting an opponent off the canvas with a punch is an illusion. But alright, Tyson had his fair share of brutal ko's as well so again, I do not see what you mean with this. Tyson has a better chin but not as much heart, Frazier had 75% heart & 25% chin. This is what kept him up when he was rocked.

[StarshipTrooper]

On point about the jab even though Tyson had much shorter arms so it is only logical that Liston had the better jab. However, you won't see Tyson's left hook and right uppercut too low on the all time great punches list. Especially as an all around puncher. One of the fastest of all time, one of the most effective etc. IMO Tyson is ahead of Liston on punching ability.

Second, Foreman also "copied" the intimidation, this doesn't matter at all and has no real argument on who's better/greater.

Third, Mike Tyson was the type of fighter that didn't last in the long run because of his style. You know about this like I do, so Liston having a longer career because of his style also does not prove who is the better man. I'll also add the fact that Tyson was fighting much bigger and phisically stronger(pushing, clinches etc) fighters while Liston was the giant of his time beating up on smaller opponents(Wich I take no credit away from Liston, but this is an important factor when we're comparing Tyson who held this disadvantage troughout his career).

It's hard to say who was the greater fighter. Liston had advantages over his opponents with fear and size. Tyson only with fear, yet many fought back(Also the case with Sonny Liston). Liston lost the title quitting on his stool(Yes, Tyson has also quit but that was at the end of his career, he never did it when he was the Champ, and he also didn't blind his opponent. IMO Tyson had the bigger heart), while Tyson fought till the end almost knocking Buster Douglass out. Liston's best win is better than Tyson's best win. Liston did maintain his skills 'till the end of his career while Tyson was becoming more and more of a puncher. Very similar fighters if you think about it.

Foreman was orginally Sonny's sparring partner so he got to learn directly from the master. Yes, Tyson had a better right than Liston but I would maintain Liston's left hook was better than Tyson's. Liston did quit on his tool.....against Muhammad Ali; Tyson quit on his stool against Kevin McBride. Quality of opposition favors Liston as well. Pre-Prison Tyson's toughest opponent was Donovan Ruddock with whom Tyson fought two grueling fights with. The Liston opponent that compare closest to Ruddock is Cleveland Williams, who Liston destroyed twice.

Poet

[BKM-]

Foreman was orginally Sonny's sparring partner so he got to learn directly from the master. Yes, Tyson had a better right than Liston but I would maintain Liston's left hook was better than Tyson's. Liston did quit on his tool.....against Muhammad Ali; Tyson quit on his stool against Kevin McBride. Quality of opposition favors Liston as well. Pre-Prison Tyson's toughest opponent was Donovan Ruddock with whom Tyson fought two grueling fights with. The Liston opponent that compare closest to Ruddock is Cleveland Williams, who Liston destroyed twice.

Poet

I still don't see how being the first(He might not even be the first, as someone else before him could have tried intimidating opponents) Boxer to intimidate opponents has any relevance to being a greater fighter than Tyson.
Liston's left better than Tyson's huh. I don't know about that. Tyson could duck and then throw it so fast his opponent wouldn't know what hit him. Step side to side to throw it, also throw multiple hooks like his signature left to the body left to the head.
Liston quit when he was the champion. Tyson quit when he had no more desire and heart to fight 10 or even 15 years ago in his very last fight. If we compare how they lost their title, it is obvious Tyson had much more heart while Liston was being pathetic trying to blind Ali, and quitting..maybe even twice.
Liston may have fought some better fighters but overall Tyson may have had just as good or a better resume. And again, I think Tyson was more impressive because he was beating bigger fighters.
And Ruddock is not Williams.

[StarshipTrooper]

I still don't see how being the first(He might not even be the first, as someone else before him could have tried intimidating opponents) Boxer to intimidate opponents has any relevance to being a greater fighter than Tyson.
Liston's left better than Tyson's huh. I don't know about that. Tyson could duck and then throw it so fast his opponent wouldn't know what hit him. Step side to side to throw it, also throw multiple hooks like his signature left to the body left to the head.
Liston quit when he was the champion. Tyson quit when he had no more desire and heart to fight 10 or even 15 years ago in his very last fight. If we compare how they lost their title, it is obvious Tyson had much more heart while Liston was being pathetic trying to blind Ali, and quitting..maybe even twice.
Liston may have fought some better fighters but overall Tyson may have had just as good or a better resume. And again, I think Tyson was more impressive because he was beating bigger fighters.
And Ruddock is not Williams.

IMO Williams was better than Ruddock. He was a slick boxer who also possesed one punch KO power. Ruddock was a one-armed bandit who through his "smash" and couldn't wipe his ass with his right.

Poet

[them_apples]

Tyson hooks and upper cuts definitely pack more power than Listons. Liston might have the stronger jab, that's notorious for long armed guys, but over all Tysons power is superior to Listons.

Doesn't matter how bad the fighter is you gotta have power to send a Carl Williams flying across the ring.

People do this in Hockey and Football to, they like to pick on guys like Gretsky and say he was going through a crappy era.

[BKM-]

IMO Williams was better than Ruddock. He was a slick boxer who also possesed one punch KO power. Ruddock was a one-armed bandit who through his "smash" and couldn't wipe his ass with his right.

Poet

Tyson fought other opponents who resembled Williams much more than Razor Ruddock. Of cource they weren't as great as Williams, this is not what I mean. Tillis, Tubbs, Tucker, Carl Williams and even Thomas and Biggs were good slick fighters, and Tyson beat and destroyed some of them too. Notice how Tyson has a consistent record of variety of opponents.
Tell ya what, how about you compile Liston's best opponents he beat, and I'll do Tyson?

[StarshipTrooper]

Tyson hooks and upper cuts definitely pack more power than Listons. Liston might have the stronger jab, that's notorious for long armed guys, but over all Tysons power is superior to Listons.

Doesn't matter how bad the fighter is you gotta have power to send a Carl Williams flying across the ring.

People do this in Hockey and Football to, they like to pick on guys like Gretsky and say he was going through a crappy era.

If I've said this once, others on this site have said a hundred times: Tyson was NOT repeat NOT the hardest punching Heavyweight ever, not even close. Nuthuggers do this all the time: pump up a near-great fighter until (in their besotted minds) he's the greatest ever. Drink some more KoolAid dude.

Poet

[them_apples]

If I've said this once, others on this site have said a hundred times: Tyson was NOT repeat NOT the hardest punching Heavyweight ever, not even close. Nuthuggers do this all the time: pump up a near-great fighter until (in their besotted minds) he's the greatest ever. Drink some more KoolAid dude.

Yes and I don't think I've once said he was the hardest punching heavyweight ether. If it is its probably some bum with no skill like mighty mo, from the k1 division.

But your only evidence for Liston's punching power is watching the videos, and if your going to go by the tapes then Tyson will win 100% of the time.

EDIT: you might want to look at yourself to sometimes, you have frequently made up Joe Louis as an unstoppable war machine.