Ray Leonard overrated

[sL0]

It took a novel to get your point across eh?
Anyway, I don't believe your my dad so they're isn't going to be any sons around here understand? To address your statement you make a valid point. Do me a favor and re-read the original post. I did not say Ray didn't fight the best, nor did I knock any of achievements. I stated that Ray, to me, will always be less than he could of for not fighting Pryor and having a rematch with Hagler. POINT BLANK. Is it my opinion that Ray was scared of Pryor, YES, I believe he didn't want any part of him because he saw something in him. I'm not a Pryor nuthugger by any degree, if its the case, you wrote a novel defending Ray Leonard, looks like you have more invested in the nuthugging department eh? Pryor wasn't a defensive fighter at all. He blocked punches with his head. The punches, however, didn't affect him. Look at his knockdowns since you have so much to go back on. The man got knocked down and literally JUMPED back up. He couldn't be hurt. So what Ray beat him up in sparring. I bet Pryor kept on coming back for more and more. Thats why I believe he was the best. You said it right he would have been an all time great if he just had the opportunity and had he stayed clear of drugs. I'm just calling it like I see it. Any more discussion needed?/

[wpink1]

Listen SON........you gotta get tougher mentailly than being upset because of 3 letters typed in a chat room. I will respect your wishes. Gizzle ok... However I have no problem with anyone ever thinking anyone can win a fight as we never know until the fight, which Pryor and Leonard never did.

Yes Pryor was the unfortunate victim of timing, and being in a in between division. If anyone should be accused of ducking him, it shuld be Duran as Duran moved up from beating all the top lightweights, and skipped right over him to fight Palimino and Leonard at welter? Once again Ray was the name and thus He is the target for most. Many say things (not targeting you) with out ever thinking about it.

Honestly think about How DUMB of a career decision would it have been for Ray to Fight Pryor at the time.

1. In 80-82 Leonard fought the best welterweight and superwelts with distant demand by the media to eventually face Hagler. Pryors name was not mentioned during this time, as he had not yet beaten Arugello til the end of 82.
2. The drum beat in 81 and 82 was for ray to face the WBA champion Hearns..then the media wanted a rematch with hearns and Hagler at the time leonard had a detached Retina and retired.
3. You correctly point out ray should have rematched hearns. However you leave out that he was in surgury for his eye roughly 6 months later in march of 82.
4. Pyror may not have been hurt by 135 pounders and 140 pounders but it is different when fighting Ray at welter. I think the avg person can agreee (maybe you and I can not) that getting his and dropped by the people he faced leads one to wonder about his balance and how would he be able to deal with the same leonard who stopped welter wieght champions who at the time had never been down and jr middle champions (kalule) who never was down amateur or pro. We can not say for sure what would happen, but I think that Pryor would have a lot more on his hans had he stepped up to 147 and fought any of the top fighters, and trust me he would have gotten killed at 147 had he faced hearns....This is not a amateur hearns who had no power, it is a professional hearns who learned how to punch.

5. Finally, need I mention to you that Ray leonard was the name at time. His job was to make sound business decisions and fight the best. He did this better than anyone ever since Ali, making over 100 million, beating 4 legends and 5-6 titles in different divisions. Ray job was not to make decisions to help other people make money off of him, especially others who never ever was a legitimate contender or demanded by the media during Rays active years. I suggest you revist the timelines and you will see Pryor was not even ranked by the Jr Welters til well into 1980. Never fought at Welter, and only became a media icon in 82 (winning fighter of the year and fight of the year) with his controverial win vs Arguello. In fact Pryor was considered nothing special at the time and the media had picked Arugello to move and beat him and gain his 4th title. Arguello was a 2-1 betting odds favorite. You honestly think that there was anyone who wanted to see a Pryor-Leoanrd fight instead of a Leonard Hearns or Hagler fight pre- Pryor -Arguello when he was not even picked to beat a figher moving up from 135. Come on now...Lets be honest. That at that time is when he could hollar the name Leoanrd and Leonard and his camp would be forced to recogninze that there is some money in this fight, and Pryor doesnt deserve a shot, as much as a cuevas or palimino who were all top WELTERS NOT JR WELTERS...but media demand is part of this too. Pryor simply came a tadbit too late ot the party. Remember, when Ray retired it was Hagler who the media wanted him to fight, and who was the VIP on hand at Leonard retirment celebration. Pryor was there as other fighters were too, but they all wanted to make their money off of Ray, This is not Rays fault.

I repsect your opinions about who would win, Gizzle. No doubl Pryor was great talent, and media favorite, and had a tragic and unfortunate ending to his career. But to fault ray for anything including not fighting him is simply a myth that the media AFTER Ray had retired started to say, and demand. Before Ray retired Pryor's name was not on the chart anymore so than hmmmm the great Japanese champion that had a lot of people wondering if Ray could deal with him.

[StarshipTrooper]

It took a novel to get your point across eh?
Anyway, I don't believe your my dad so they're isn't going to be any sons around here understand? To address your statement you make a valid point. Do me a favor and re-read the original post. I did not say Ray didn't fight the best, nor did I knock any of achievements. I stated that Ray, to me, will always be less than he could of for not fighting Pryor and having a rematch with Hagler. POINT BLANK. Is it my opinion that Ray was scared of Pryor, YES, I believe he didn't want any part of him because he saw something in him. I'm not a Pryor nuthugger by any degree, if its the case, you wrote a novel defending Ray Leonard, looks like you have more invested in the nuthugging department eh? Pryor wasn't a defensive fighter at all. He blocked punches with his head. The punches, however, didn't affect him. Look at his knockdowns since you have so much to go back on. The man got knocked down and literally JUMPED back up. He couldn't be hurt. So what Ray beat him up in sparring. I bet Pryor kept on coming back for more and more. Thats why I believe he was the best. You said it right he would have been an all time great if he just had the opportunity and had he stayed clear of drugs. I'm just calling it like I see it. Any more discussion needed?/

Listen, Pryor was NOT all that. Who did he beat? A washed up Arguello who would have knocked Pryor out if it had been just five years earlier. Hearns would have iced the Hawk at Welterweight and so would Leonard and I'd have laid even money on a past his prime Duran doing the same. Pryor fanatics remind me of the Tony Ayala freaks who think he would have ripped the Welters apart despite not having a single name fighter on his record.

Poet

[Burning Desire]

Listen, Pryor was NOT all that. Who did he beat? A washed up Arguello who would have knocked Pryor out if it had been just five years earlier. Hearns would have iced the Hawk at Welterweight and so would Leonard and I'd have laid even money on a past his prime Duran doing the same. Pryor fanatics remind me of the Tony Ayala freaks who think he would have ripped the Welters apart despite not having a single name fighter on his record.

Poet

I totally disagree with this Arguello was not past his prime and in previous fights to Pryor he didn't look past his best or washed up i don't think your giving Pryor enough credit for that win no one thought Arguello was past his best prior to the fight thats why he was the favorite and he certainly didn't fight like he was past his best when he fought Pryor.

Now i don't think he would of ripped the Welterweights apart but he would defintely give Duran, Leonard, Hearns, tough fights.

[StarshipTrooper]

I totally disagree with this Arguello was not past his prime and in previous fights to Pryor he didn't look past his best or washed up i don't think your giving Pryor enough credit for that win no one thought Arguello was past his best prior to the fight thats why he was the favorite and he certainly didn't fight like he was past his best when he fought Pryor.

Now i don't think he would of ripped the Welterweights apart but he would defintely give Duran, Leonard, Hearns, tough fights.

And Cervantes was not only past his prime but at the end of his string: After Pryor he fought sporadically over the next three years against nobodies Arguello WAS past his prime, his best days were in the 70s at Featherweight not in the 80s at Junior-Welter. A lot of observers don't realize a fighter is past his prime until it reaches out and smacks them in the face, even though logic would tell them the truth of the matter. Hindsight IS 20/20 afterall and we can look back and see, yeah, he's past it better than people watching at the time. Did Pryor fight Benitez? Hearns? Leonard? Duran? Hell, did he even fight Cuevas? No. There aren't any of these PRIME names on his resume. He simply doesn't have the credentials to justify the adulation people shower on him.

Poet

[Burning Desire]

And Cervantes was not only past his prime but at the end of his string: After Pryor he fought sporadically over the next three years against nobodies Arguello WAS past his prime, his best days were in the 70s at Featherweight not in the 80s at Junior-Welter. A lot of observers don't realize a fighter is past his prime until it reaches out and smacks them in the face, even though logic would tell them the truth of the matter. Hindsight IS 20/20 afterall and we can look back and see, yeah, he's past it better than people watching at the time. Did Pryor fight Benitez? Hearns? Leonard? Duran? Hell, did he even fight Cuevas? No. There aren't any of these PRIME names on his resume. He simply doesn't have the credentials to justify the adulation people shower on him.

Poet

But when did Arguello look past his prime in previsious fights ?? he didn't look past his prime against Mancini or against Kevin Rooney who he dismantled your telling me he was past his best but your not telling me in what fights he was past his best prior to Pryor fight i have watched quite alot of Arguello and i see both of Mancini and Rooney fights and he certainly didn't look past his best in those fights nor did he look past his best when he fought Pryor in there 1st meeting im not saying Pryor has a load of great wins but i still don't think your giving Pryor enough credit for Arguello fight remember Pryor was the underdog against Arguello.

[Hawkins]

But when did Arguello look past his prime in previsious fights ?? he didn't look past his prime against Mancini or against Kevin Rooney who he dismantled your telling me he was past his best but your not telling me in what fights he was past his best prior to Pryor fight i have watched quite alot of Arguello and i see both of Mancini and Rooney fights and he certainly didn't look past his best in those fights nor did he look past his best when he fought Pryor in there 1st meeting im not saying Pryor has a load of great wins but i still don't think your giving Pryor enough credit for Arguello fight remember Pryor was the underdog against Arguello.

I think the reason Pryor get such adulation and praise is a combination of factors - alot of guys didn't want to face him, the myth that Ray ducked him, the Arguello fights and his truly exciting, take no prisoners, style.

I think he's in the vein of many fighters in that he is vastly overrated and underrated at the same time.

[Burning Desire]

I think the reason Pryor get such adulation and praise is a combination of factors - alot of guys didn't want to face him, the myth that Ray ducked him, the Arguello fights and his truly exciting, take no prisoners, style.

I think he's in the vein of many fighters in that he is vastly overrated and underrated at the same time.

I think he's in the vein of many fighters in that he is vastly overrated and underrated at the same time

I totally agree with your last comment well said.

[hhascup]

Tommy Hearns vs Aaron Pryor as Amateurs. Tommy wasn't a KO artist as an Amateur as he only had a few KO's before he turned Pro. Also, Hearns was only 17 and was just out of the JO's at the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BvlgGbrKzs

[wpink1]

" think the reason Pryor get such adulation and praise is a combination of factors - alot of guys didn't want to face him, the myth that Ray ducked him, the Arguello fights and his truly exciting, take no prisoners, style.

I think he's in the vein of many fighters in that he is vastly overrated and underrated at the same time."

Hawkins..great post. I agree with 99% of your post. Only thing i question is being underrated. For Pyror to be even ranked in the top 100 of all time is overrating him. Not that I dont think he would have ultimately achieved this had he faced better fighters..except for Hearns and Leonard at Welter. However, He simply does not have the resume to justify this folklore that we have with him. It is funny how many people jumpt on the Leonard ducked Pryor bandwagon, with out doing their research. A simple time line, and any intelligent business thnking shows that simply Pryor came along a shade bit too late.

I think that the fight that could have propelled him to stardom would have been Duran when he was moving up. Now I know there was some back door conversations between the two camps that resulted in them never meeting. However that was more a "should be" fight than a fighter who was in a weight class that Pryor entered 8 years or so later.