Ray Leonard overrated

[Panamaniac]

But it's important to remember Duran's legacy is separate and apart from Leonard. Leonard's prime was at Welterweight and Duran's was at Lightweight. Duran was past his prime when he decisioned Leonard which, of course, adds to Duran's achievment. Leonard was ONE of the greatest Welterweights ever. Duran was THE greatest Lightweight ever. In terms of overall p4p rankings I think Duran HAS to rank higher than Leonard based on his achievements at Lightweight. At Welterweight and higher though, Leonard has to rank higher. No sleight to Duran, just an acknowledgement that he was past his prime when he fought at Welterweight.

Poet

Your flawless analysis is a rare achievement on this forum...

[wmute]

Imho, you give Duran too much credit. Yes he was the greatest lightweight ever. But when he moved up he quit against Leonard in the second fight. Sorry but quitters are never all time greats in my eyes, and then he stuck around so long it was pathetic. Fighting bums in highschool gymnasiums for a six pack of beer. I know I'm exaggerating, but just barely. The guy finished his career a slow, fat joke. A shadow of his former glory and I think it has to put a dent in his legacy...

Sugar Ray Robinson fought while he was well past it, looking like ****. Does that put a dent in his legacy, too?

[SonnyG8R]

Sugar Ray Robinson fought while he was well past it, looking like ****. Does that put a dent in his legacy, too?

In my opinion, YES...

[wmute]

RJJ, and PBF never beat anyone nearly as great as the fighters Leonard beat. RJJ gave Tarver a rematch and got KTFO. Giving fighters rematches doesnt carry much weight with me.

Exactly what might have happened to a fighter rematching an opponent, Leonard carefully avoided being in that position

As I said, giving rematches matters a lot when you beat the fighter under circumstances which might not repeat themselves. You seem to have missed that point.
Jones beat Hopkins and Toney which is not bad and Floyd is actually beating serious competition in his 4th weight class unlike Leonard ridiculous venture at 168.
Note that I didnt say that Jones or Mayweather are better than Leonard. Only that
1) they gave due rematches which Leonard did not, and THEY are called bitches, dodgers. Leonard a warrior (dont know if you personally did that.
2) Leonard is on a level of Jones and Mayweather, a few carefully selected fights not 100 victories fighting many times their toughest opponents.

If the Hearns fight was 12 who knows what would have happened, maybe both fighters would have fought differntly, but the result the same?? (Leonard hurt Hearns long before he became tired, and could have stopped him earlier).

When exactly did Leonard hurt Hearns BEFORE he was tired?

LOL, What could have Leonard done different? He got thouroughly outboxed, His stamina and chin kept him in and he took out his guts to KO Tommy, if he could have KOed Hearns in 12, he would have. We will never known because the two rematched only as old men. (And Leonard got a gift)

The Hagler fight was a ****in miracle and i always have Leonard winning clearly.

I score the fight for Leonard, too. But there is nothing clear in a win in which you land slaps, you look dead at the end, after you have rigged everything possible to your advantage (Hagler's fault) and your fighting an opponent who is giving away rounds sure to knock your head off (Hagler's fault again).

Leonard's fault was the "retire-until-Hagler-retires" move.

The fans fault is calling Mayweather a businessman and Leonard a warrior and bull**** like that.

[wmute]

In my opinion, YES...

ok then.

In my opinion NO, because a fighter should be judged on is prime or close to prime fights, not on his career management (and savings, and how much money he made and so on...).

Leonard should have a dent for his comebacks against Norris and in particular against Camacho, the only difference from Duran and Robinson is that he got payed a lot to look like ****.

[StarshipTrooper]

When exactly did Leonard hurt Hearns BEFORE he was tired?

I believe it was the fifth round when Leonard landed a monster body shot. It was after that that Hearns stopped attacking and started boxing. He built up a big lead in rounds 6 - 12 only because Leonard failed to adjust to the new dynamic the fight had taken on. Don Dunphy calling the fight scored that round 10-8 for Leonard.

Poet

[wmute]

I believe it was the fifth round when Leonard landed a monster body shot. It was after that that Hearns stopped attacking and started boxing. He built up a big lead in rounds 6 - 12 only because Leonard failed to adjust to the new dynamic the fight had taken on. Don Dunphy calling the fight scored that round 10-8 for Leonard.

Poet

Ok, when did Hearns start to look like he was going to lose the fight?

"only because"? How biased can one get? do you read what you type? "only because"? nothing to do with Hearns never being outboxed thru his career, just Leonard taking 6 rounds to "adjust to the new dynamic"... We are talking Leonard here, one of the smartest fighter ever, Leonard doesnt take 6 rounds to adjust.

[The Noose]

wmute;2602407]Exactly what might have happened to a fighter rematching an opponent, Leonard carefully avoided being in that position

As I said, giving rematches matters a lot when you beat the fighter under circumstances which might not repeat themselves. You seem to have missed that point.

Ur right. But i think 50% of most fights would be different second time around. Maybe every fight should be a best out of 5 series, to know exactly who is better. I think the great thing about the first match up is that pyschological battle. As in Leonard trying to outfight Duran or Chavez amazing comeback against Taylor.Its the unpredictable element that creates so much excitment.

When exactly did Leonard hurt Hearns BEFORE he was tired?

LOL, What could have Leonard done different? He got thouroughly outboxed, His stamina and chin kept him in and he took out his guts to KO Tommy, if he could have KOed Hearns in 12, he would have. We will never known because the two rematched only as old men. (And Leonard got a gift)

Watch the fight. SRL has Hearns in real trouble at the end of the 6th and 7th where Hearns has trouble wlaking back to his corner. If he had hurt him earlier in the round he could have finished him.
I also had the rematch extremely close. I dont beleive it was a gift.

I score the fight for Leonard, too. But there is nothing clear in a win in which you land slaps, you look dead at the end, after you have rigged everything possible to your advantage (Hagler's fault) and your fighting an opponent who is giving away rounds sure to knock your head off (Hagler's fault again).

All i know is both fighters agreed to the conditions before the fight, and whether or not the fighters look dead at the end Leonard out scored, out moved and out boxed a slow plodding Hagler. Thats clear to me.

Leonard's fault was the "retire-until-Hagler-retires" move.

The fans fault is calling Mayweather a businessman and Leonard a warrior and bull**** like that.

Hagler had nothing left. He was fighting once a year and Leonard came out of retirement a year after fighting Hagler. But yea, Leonard ducked him. And rightly so.

Mayweather and his critics is a whole other topic.

[StarshipTrooper]

Ok, when did Hearns start to look like he was going to lose the fight?

"only because"? How biased can one get? do you read what you type? "only because"? nothing to do with Hearns never being outboxed thru his career, just Leonard taking 6 rounds to "adjust to the new dynamic"... We are talking Leonard here, one of the smartest fighter ever, Leonard doesnt take 6 rounds to adjust.

How biased can you get? Your entire argument seems to be: If it hadn't been for that insignificant little incident of Hearns being TKOed he would have won the fight. Come on man, this is ridiculous. We're talking about a fight in which Hearns was STOPPED! Hello! What it really boils down to is that if it hadn't been for Leonard beating the **** out Hearns in the 13th and 14th round he would Hearns would have won. Well guess what? Leonard DID beat the **** of Hearns in those to rounds and he won the fight. Bitching about it 26 years later isn't going to change the fact that glass-jawed Hearns got TKOed.

Poet

[wmute]

How biased can you get? Your entire argument seems to be: If it hadn't been for that insignificant little incident of Hearns being TKOed he would have won the fight. Come on man, this is ridiculous. We're talking about a fight in which Hearns was STOPPED! Hello! What it really boils down to is that if it hadn't been for Leonard beating the **** out Hearns in the 13th and 14th round he would Hearns would have won. Well guess what? Leonard DID beat the **** of Hearns in those to rounds and he won the fight. Bitching about it 26 years later isn't going to change the fact that glass-jawed Hearns got TKOed.

Poet

I never made the argument that you put in my mouth.

My complaint is that Leonard never gave the rematches he should have given, and I pointed out how a rematch with Hearns at 154 in a 12 rounds fight, would have been VERY different, since Hearns was winning on all cards by round 12 and he would not have been as dehydrated at 154.

YOU on the other hand stated that Hearns built a lead ONLY because Leonard took 7 rounds to adapt to the new pace of the fight, which is simply RIDICULOUS since Leonard is one of the smartest fighters to set foot in a ring and since no one ever outboxed Hearns.