Ray Leonard overrated

[butterfly1964]

As do I, and those accomplishments and more when far past his prime show just how good he was. I just get upset when people make judgements about Duran and Foreman based solely on these second careers, without ever seeing enough of their respective fights in their prime.

I'm not saying Duran wasn't great, but Leonard is misunderstood on this forum.

[hhascup]

If you go by the STATS, Sugar Ray Leonard has to be rated as one of the best.

Leonard fought a total of 21 Boxers that were rated in the Top 10 in the World when he fought them in 40 Pro bouts. That's a percentage of 52.5%. Compare that with Basilio 19 out of 79, Napoles 27 out of 85. Here's some of the top boxers, with their Stats:

* Champion in another weight class, so if you count them, the ratings would be a little higher for some. Example: Joe Louis would be 36 (instead of 34 because he fought 2 Light Heavyweight Champions that were not rated as a Heavyweight) out of 71 for a percentage of 50.7042%. I also added them at the end:


Ali, Muhammad 38/061 = 62.295% = 62.295%
Leonard, Sugar Ray 21/040 = 52.50000% = 52.50000%
Griffith, Emile 57*/112 = 50.892857% = 51.7857142857%
Charles, Ezzard 58**/115 = 50.43478% = 52.173913%
Louis, Joe 34**/071 = 47.887% = 50.70422535%
Spinks, Michael 14/032 = 43.75% = 43.75%
Bivins, Jimmy 48*/112 = 42.857% = 0.4375%
Ortiz, Carlos 29**/070 = 41.42857% = 44.2857%
Ortiz, Manual 52*/128 = 40.625% = 41.40625%
Saldivar, Vincente 16/041 = 39.02439% = 39.02439%
Maxim, Joey 44***/115 = 38.26087% = 40.869565%
LaMotta, Jake 39*/106 = 36.792453% = 37.735849%
Johnson, Harold 32/087 = 36.781609% = 36.781609%
Patterson, Floyd 23/064 = 35.9375% = 35.9375%
Walcott, Jersey Joe 25/071 = 35.211% = 35.211%
Frazier, Joe 13*/037 = 35.135% = 37.8378378%
Fullmer, Gene 22/064 = 34.37500% = 34.37500%
Fenech, Jeff 11*/032 = 34.37500% = 37.50000%
Burley, Charley 32/098 = 32.65306% = 32.65306%
Napoles, Jose 27/085 = 31.7647% = 31.7647%
Williams, Ike 49***/155 = 31.6129% = 33.548387%
Robinson, Sugar Ray 62*/200 = 31.00000% = 31.5000%
Sharkey, Jack 17*/055 = 30.9091% = 32.727272727%
Tiger, **** 25*/081 = 30.8642% = 32.0987654%
Foster, Bob 20/065 = 30.769231% = 30.769231%
Gavilan, Kid 42/143 = 29.37063% = 29.37063%
Benitez, Wilfredo 18/062 = 29.032258% = 29.032258%
Montgomery, Bob 28/097 = 28.865979% = 28.865979%
Jack, Beau 34/118 = 28.813559% = 28.813559%
Moore, Archie 63**/219 = 28.767% = 29.680%
Laguna, Ismael 21/075 = 28.0000% = 28.0000%
Apostoli, Fred 20/072 = 27.777778% = 27.777778%
Gomez, Wilfredo 13*/048 = 27.083333% = 29.166667%
Chandler, Jeff 10/037 = 27.02703% = 27.02703%
Giardello, Joey 36*/134 = 26.86567% = 27.61194%
Brown, Joe 43*/162 = 26.54321% = 27.1604938%
Ramos, Sugar 17/066 = 25.75757576% = 25.75757576%
Armstrong, Henry 47***/183 = 25.6831% = 27.3224%
Hagler, Marvin 17*/067 = 25.373134% = 26.8656716%
Olson, Bobo 29*/117 = 24.7863248% = 25.6410%
Conn, Billy 19***/077 = 24.6753% = 28.5714%
Qawi, Dwight Muhammad 13/053 = 24.528302% = 24.528302%
Basilio, Carmen 19/079 = 24.0506329% = 24.0506329%
Norton, Ken 12/050 = 24.0000% = 24.0000%
Cuevas, Pipino 12/050 = 24.0000% = 24.0000%
Pastrano, Willie 20/084 = 23.8095238% = 23.8095238%
Cokes, Curtis 19/080 = 23.7500% = 23.7500%
Marciano, Rocky 11/049 = 22.44898% = 22.44898%
Carter, Jimmy 27*/121 = 22.31405% = 23.140496%
Liston, Sonny 12/054 = 22.2222% = 22.2222%
Jofre, Eder 17/078 = 21.79487% = 21.79487%
Sanchez, Salvador 10*/046 = 21.73913% = 23.913043%
Angott, Sammy 29***/134 = 21.64179% = 23.8806%
Rodriguez, Luis 26/121 = 21.4876% = 21.4876%
Arguello, Alexis 19/090 = 21.11111% = 21.11111%
Elorde, Flash 24/116 = 20.689655% = 20.689655%
Baer, Max 17/084 = 20.2381% = 20.2381%
Benvenuti, Nino 18/090 = 20.0000% = 20.0000%
Braddock, Jim 17/086 = 19.76744% = 19.76744%
Harada, Fighting 12/062 = 19.3548% = 19.3548%
Galindez, Victor 13/070 = 18.5714% = 18.5714%
Berlenbach, Paul 10**/054 = 18.5185% = 22.22222%
Battalino, Battling 16/087 = 18.3908% = 18.3908%
Zivic, Fritzie 42**/234 = 17.94872% = 18.8034%
Johansson, Ingo 05/028 = 17.85714% = 17.85714%
Carbajal, Michael 09/053 = 16.981132% = 16.981132%
Arizmendi, Baby 19*/113 = 16.814159% = 17.699%
Chacon, Bobby 11*/067 = 16.4179% = 17.9104%
Ambers, Lou 17**/104 = 16.34615% = 18.2692%
Canto, Miguel 12/074 = 16.216216% = 16.216216%
Monzon, Carlos 15/100 = 15.000% = 15.000%
Berg, Jack Kid 28*/192 = 14.58333% = 15.10417%
Buchanan, Ken 10*/069 = 14.49275% = 15.9420%
Pep, Willie 35/242 = 14.46281% = 14.46281%
Graziano, Rocky 12/083 = 14.4578% = 14.4578%
Schmeling, Max 10*/070 = 14.285714% = 15.7142857%
Graham, Billy 18*/126 = 14.2857% = 15.079%
Foreman, George 11*/081 = 13.5802469% = 14.8148148%
Cervantes, Antonio 14**/106 = 13.207547% = 15.0943%
Canzoneri, Tony 23*/175 = 13.142857% = 13.7142857%
Bass, Benny 25/228 = 10.9649% = 10.9649%
Jenkins, Lew 12**/114 = 10.5263% = 12.2807%
Brouillard, Lou 14*/141 = 09.929078% = 10.638298%
Chocolate, Kid 15*/152 = 09.8684% = 10.5263%
Cerdan, Marcel 10/113 = 08.84956% = 08.84956%
Brown, Panama Al 15*/70 = 08.235% = 09.4117647%

[sL0]

Leonard was a great but its two things that always stick with me.

1) He didn't give Hagler a rematch
2) He was SCARED of Aaron Pryor

coke head or not..dude could fight and would have beat leonard and everyone else. I put Hawk above Leonard.

[wpink1]

gizzzle...that is a joke...it is people who know nothing about boxing, nothing about time line...nothing that continously say unsupported stuff like that. Pryor called out Ray leonard. when....hmmmm. Get your facts straight. He called out ray during an era when ray fought duran, twice, bentitez, kalule, Hearns..... Ray then foguth one time after that and forced into retirment due to retinal damage.

Tell us this ...when shoiuld a Pryor Leonard fight have taken place.
Better yet what validated Pryor as legitimate Welterweight contender
Who great did Pryor beat at their peak that was a solid Jr welterweight.
If Ray leonard had fought Pryor instead of Hearns then how would history have remember Ray.

Keep in mind Pyrors fight with Arguello was [B]AFTER[/B] Leonard had retinal surgery.

Finally, Ray leonard fought the toughest stretch of fights I can remember anyone fighting, no matter who he fought there is some who know nothing about negotiatons, boxing, or the options Leonard had...some haters will always sit back uhhh Ray was ducking this fighter or he ducked that fighter... You cant fighter everyone, and Pryor who never ever fought at welterweight before he retired, did nothing to deserve a title shot with leonard while leonard was active. As far as being scared, why would he be scared of little ol Pryor and face fighters like heanrs and Haglr...and when he use to whip up on Pryor in sparring.

[LondonRingRules]

If you go by the STATS, Sugar Ray Leonard has to be rated as one of the best.

Leonard fought a total of 21 Boxers that were rated in the Top 10 in the World when he fought them in 40 Pro bouts. That's a percentage of 52.5%. Compare that with Basilio 19 out of 79, Napoles 27 out of 85. Here's some of the top boxers, with their Stats:

** Stats are nice Henry, and it is impressive the vast array of stats that you have come up with on this forum. As I recall, many you have provided seem to be the product of your own research and obviously took some time to compile.

However, there are stats, and there are stats. It seems you penalize career longevity heavily if I read your conclusions properly, Basilio and and Napoles lasting twice as long as Leonard.

Just like using title fights as a main marker of greatness, when so many fighters are frozen out of title fights for much of their careers, or even all their careers, yet titles being a dime a dozen today. How great would Charles be ranked if he never fought for the heavyweight title, yet had the same exact record?

Most modern historians would rank Ray ahead of Jeffries in compiling a greatest fighter list. Jeffries career lasted half as long as that of Ray, and 45% was against HOFers at or near their best, save Jackson. All those HOF bouts came in Jeffries last 15 fights, a 60% ratio. Oddly enough, plug in title fights for HOF and the exact 45% for career remains. How many fighters have and close out their careers like that? I doubt you can find any fighter who comes close to those records, but does that make Jeffries the best?

What we knew about ancient mid and South American native cultures was published extensively over the past century, but it turns out that the picture of the cultures the archeologists put together has mostly been turned upside down by recent, more comprehensive excavations.

Seems those early archeologists restricted their research to what could be found next to major roads in the region. Modern aerial mapping and excavation techniques have greatly expanded our understanding, but even so it just represents a limited point of view.

We cannot even begin to fully describe and understand all the myriad of permutations of modern American culture, much less that of the world. Yet every year new books come out by historians claiming to do just that at one level or another.

Boxing is a great deal more simplified than all that, but even so, it's still an immense undertaking, something like 300,000+ fighters in Boxrec, most of whom very little is known. Consequently, the focus tends to be on those more widely covered fighters. Still, there is no wide consensus on what actually occurred in the first Flynn/Dempsey fight, much less the Liston/Ali rematch, reasonably well covered events in their day and relatively modern history in comparison.

Ray is one of the best, without question. Ranking him becomes an exercise in how many great fighters can you rank on the head of a pin. I dare say it's fairly easy to rank a few, but any more than that it becomes a swearing match, with many claiming me, me, I've got the most and best fighters ranked on a pinhead plus a spreadsheet.

I reckon these lists makes Burt Sugar a little walking around money when he comes out with his new published list, and I doubt he even has a spreadsheet.

Well, your spreadsheets are greatly welcomed, and it's very interesting to contemplate your passion that led you to go to that much trouble. Might be worth a comprehensive compiling of all your spreadsheets in a publication with your own rankings in your own story. A touch of honey to flavor all that sugar might be tasty.

[hhascup]

I just wanted you to see another way of rating them. During Leonard's 40 Pro bouts he fought more Top 10 contenders then Basilio did in his 79 bouts. I also go by who they fought and what their opponents record was. Example:

Ali fought guys that had an average record of

Ali: 33.2-5.2-1.2
Louis 38.1-10.2-2.6
Marciano 29.7-10.16-1.8

Leonard 31.85-4.575-1

I know STATS don't show you the whole picture, BUT it's another thing you can look at when your trying to rate them.

[sL0]

My comment was he was scared to fight HAWK....which he was. You cannot lie about that one. Hawk repeatedly called out leonard and because they were friends, leonard always jokingly said no. Hawk would've beat leonard and you know that. They could've fought after Pryor, who already was WBA titleholder after destroying Cervantes in '80, could've fought after the Duran rematch. Pryor would've been coming off a destruction of a good fighter in Lennox Blackmoore. Instead of fighting Larry "****in" Bonds, he should've of fought Aaron Pryor. But NO...As far as sparring is concerned, there is a video on youtube of pryor schooling a young tommy hearns. Facts are straight. Look at the mans record. He destroyed people. People weren't looking to fight him..give me a break.

[wpink1]

Gizzle...First off son...let he help you in one area. You say I know Pryor would have beaten Leonard. No I do not know that. I think Leoanrd would have destroyed Pryor. IMO Pryor got hit way to easily and was rocked by Arguello, knocked down by dujuan johnson, cervantes, kameda....all fighters that hit about 10% as hard and fast as Ray does...Hmmm had that have been Leonard in that fight with Arguello Pryor would not have made it to round 8....More speed, bigger fighter, more power and better jaw, that what he faced in Arguello and Cervantez his too biggest challengers.

Gizzle, another thing I have seen the boxing match with a Amateur Tommy hearns and he did not destroy him. It was a semi close fight. He was the aggressor but we all know Tommy had no power as an amateur and was considered a boxer.

Now you say he should have fought Pryor...hmmmm lets analyze that. Your obviously a Pryor fan. Kudos.. However if you know boxing and know business, what sense would it have made leonard to fight Pryor a Jr welterweight who at the time only beat Cervantes, never moved up to Welterweight (As Duran did and beat Palimino), and oh yeh after the Duran fight he fought who.....you forget to list the champions he fought 1st Kalule the 154 WBA champion, and then Tommy Hearns. Lets see Gizzle...How friendly would history had been on Leoanrd had he not fought Hearns who also called him out with a rubber duck after he beat leoanrd. Oh by the way the media wanted this fight 10x more than a Pryor fight, as evidenced by that fight racking in more $ than any other fight ever at the time. Leonard fighting Hearns who just destroyed Cuevas, was 32-0 with 30 ko's but he was scared to fight Pryor who did not hit as hard, smaller less reach...and who he used to beat up in sparring. Hmmmmmm And Gizzle these are Pryor's own words regarding Leonard and his sparring sessions...1st statement..."Yes Leonard use to Lump me up when we sparred, but I got in some good licks too", and second Statement,..."Leonard I would have loved to fight Ray,,,ask him he knows me".......I agree Pryor called ray out, but who didnt. If you were alive at the time, and if you were a boxing enthusiast at the time, you know that every fighter from 135 to 160 including on Mr. hagler who the media was wanting Ray to fight also ,,,, much more that Pryor, wanted to fight ray. Was calling out Ray. Fighters from 1979 Cuevas, Palimino all were lining up their fights to get a chance to fight ray. Ray fought the winners of great matchups at the Welterweight division,,,Son. Look up your facts. He fought the winner of Duran Palimino..and Benitez Palimino...Both of them. He fought the winner of Cuevas Hearns......So what he fought a bum in Larry bonds..Who else did he fight between 79-81.

I ask you this since you want to throw darts, Who else has fought a tougher stretch of fights n a 3 Year period than Ray did.

Finally, Gizzle...You talk about this fight,,,the media was not even thinking about this fight or pyror until after he beat Arguello. Pryor was a 2-1 underdog vs Arguello coming up to beat him. There was no media demand for this fight, until 83, after he beat Arguello and after Ray retired. Pryor wanted money, and Ray was the route to this....However, son if you know your facts, Ray's majore issue at the time was a man named Hagler and a rematch with Hearns. Pryor was a possible opponent but down the list. It is folklore and people that simply do not know exactly the time line back then..(Look up the dates, or do i have to list them for you) so that they can easily tell that all this Pryor stuff is simply people trying to make a big challenger out of a fighter who never came up to Welter wieght and fought his biggest and only valid qualifying fight after Ray Retired. I also ask you what if Ray had came back and fought Pryor instead of Hagler....How would history view him.

Your arguement is honestly a joke, unsupported, and if you think about it instead of jumping on bandwagons cause your a Pryor nuthugger you will realize that Leonard could not fight every fighter out there, but he did fight the best of the litter and all 4 were more qualified for a title match with him than a fither who never fought at welter, and only beat 1 fighter in his entire career that was a top fighter that was an original super featherweight, at the end of his career. I suggest you continue to support pryror,but when debating me, get your facts straight and get of the pryor nuthugger pipe.



Time line my friend.

Leonard duran fights june -nov 1980
Leonard heanrs 9/81
Retires november 1982
November 12th Pryor Arguello 1st fight...

" Once again between rounds Pryor's notorious cornerman Panama Lewis, well known for cheating and doing anything to win, could be heard requesting the second bottle, and telling an aide "No, not that one, the one I mixed", when the aide offered the water bottle that had been used throughout the rest of the fight."

Just a little quote on how Pryor rallied to win that fight.

Sept 1983 Rematch with Arguello.........

So my friend Gizzle Where was there a legitimate chance it to make sense for Ray to fight a fighter who did not enter into anyone's consiousness until 1982..He was not even ranked until 1980 at Jr Welterweight.

I got a lot of other facts for you if you want them. The whole issue is this. Pryor was good, but he was robbed of his chance at greatness. He may have been able to do the things that many think, but he never showed it versus top flight opposition for whatever reason. Based on objective reasoning, and factual evidence that we can see, and common business sense which anyone who knows Ray knows not only did he face the best quality ever, but he made the most money at the time,,,,there is no valid supported arguement for there to ever have been a Pryor vs Leonard fight, unless he had not retired. That is a decision he made based on the best information he had at the time, and seeing examples of other fighters Sugar Ray seals, Greb, and Pryor himself later, all fighter who did not head the warnign about detached retinas...


Also here is a list for Ray quality of opposition I will quote HHascup, for showing a quantitative, objective way at looking at reviewing the quality of a fighters career.

I just wanted you to see another way of rating them. During Leonard's 40 Pro bouts he fought more Top 10 contenders then Basilio did in his 79 bouts. I also go by who they fought and what their opponents record was. Example:

Ali fought guys that had an average record of

Ali: 33.2-5.2-1.2
Louis 38.1-10.2-2.6
Marciano 29.7-10.16-1.8

Leonard 31.85-4.575-1

I know STATS don't show you the whole picture, BUT it's another thing you can look at when your trying to rate them.

[hhascup]

Just for the record Pryor fought opponents that had an average record of 24.23-11.05-1.256

[wpink1]

Thanks,,,So what we have here is a fighter who had comparible amount of fights...who had oppositions with an average record of 24 wins 11 lossess and 1 draw... Pryor ...Vs a figher who had a an average of 32-5-1..Also a fighter who beat four top legends.... where 3 of his opponents where bigger, stronger, and higher rated pound per pound than Pryor could dream of being rated...and the fourth was Duran.....And again Pryor never set foot in the welterweights til much much latter in his career, but we on here debating Ray not fighting Pryor....wow. It would be a better arguement about Ray not fighting Cuevas, or hell he could have fought Chavez he had just as much a right to fight Ray as Pryor did.