Ray Leonard overrated

[StarshipTrooper]

To say I'm not a Leonard fan is a huge understatement, but the argument could me made that Leonard was the best of the fab four if only because he's the only one (of the foursome) to have defeated the other three.

It's also a huge understatement to say that of the four, Duran is the only one whose blip on boxing's radar screen has taken on legendary proportions, helped in no small measure by his defeat of Leonard.

But it's important to remember Duran's legacy is separate and apart from Leonard. Leonard's prime was at Welterweight and Duran's was at Lightweight. Duran was past his prime when he decisioned Leonard which, of course, adds to Duran's achievment. Leonard was ONE of the greatest Welterweights ever. Duran was THE greatest Lightweight ever. In terms of overall p4p rankings I think Duran HAS to rank higher than Leonard based on his achievements at Lightweight. At Welterweight and higher though, Leonard has to rank higher. No sleight to Duran, just an acknowledgement that he was past his prime when he fought at Welterweight.

Poet

[ianwigley]

Seriously, how can people consider him the best of the fab 4? Duran can be considered better on longevity alone, let alone the fact that Duran had some huge wins, and beat peak Leonard pretty easily (despite Duran being 12 pounds above his best weight).

Hearns outboxed Leonard for 10 of 14 rounds in their first fight. Too bad Tommy took a punch like a spider's web. The first time Leonard tapped him, Hearns was staggering all over the place. Hearns was a far better boxer, and was robbed in the rematch.

The Hagler decision is still debated today. We know what would have happened if a peak Hagler faced Leonard.

Probably can't say Leonard was overrated. That'd be like saying Hagler was overrated.

Leonard's olympic achievements started his legacy, his pro career just cemented his greatness. Never overrated.

[wmute]

Probably can't say Leonard was overrated. That'd be like saying Hagler was overrated.

Leonard's olympic achievements started his legacy, his pro career just cemented his greatness. Never overrated.

His greatest wins (Duran, Hearns, Benitez, Hagler) came under specific circumstances which were most likely not going to happen again, and he never granted timely rematches to any of the fighters he beat.

This puts an ocean between him and the greats like Duran, Robinson, Armstrong, Ali, Pep...

[American_Ninja]

I used to hate Leonard, back in the day.
Hind sight being 20/20. He was a great fighter.
The combination of speed and power he had was unmatched.
Heart, Determination, he had it all. He stood toe to toe with
Hands Of Stone. His epic battle with The Hitman showed True Grit.

Overrated? I think not. Under-appreciated? Yes.

[StarshipTrooper]

All fighters are overrated.Get over it.

Versi, I'm personally sick of the term overrated. It's been so badly abused the ref waved it off years ago. Generally speaking, fighter X is overrated = The poster, for whatever reason, can't stand that fighter; fighter X is underrated = The poster, for whatever reason, really likes that fighter. Simple as that. Apparently it's not enough to simply be a fan of boxing: The trend seems to be to boost up the fighters you like and try to rip down the ones you don't.

Poet

[The Noose]

His greatest wins (Duran, Hearns, Benitez, Hagler) came under specific circumstances which were most likely not going to happen again, and he never granted timely rematches to any of the fighters he beat.

This puts an ocean between him and the greats like Duran, Robinson, Armstrong, Ali, Pep...

Im not sure if i put as much importance over a fighter granting another fighter a rematch after they have beat them.

Duran never gave Buchanan a rematch or Bizzaro, or Barkley etc...
U could say the same about many great fighters.

For me its what happened on the night.
People say Hagler was over the hill, but dont mention Leonard had only fought once in 5 years! And had never fought at middleweight, and beat possibly the greatest middleweight champion EVER!

Hearns in his prime was an ATG welterweight and Leonard KO'd him.
He CHOSE to try and outfight one of the greatest in-fighters ever in Duran. And did better than most fighters could of dreamed of doing.

Leonard deserves credit. He was ****in great and made an incredible comeback against ATG opposition.

[wmute]

Im not sure if i put as much importance over a fighter granting another fighter a rematch after they have beat them.

Leonard victories against those four came under very specific cicrumstances that's why he should have gave them the rematches they were (mostly) screaming for.

the specific circumstances being

Benitez... this is the one where the rematch was needed the least but Benitez was cut and fighting more offensive than usual for him most likely because of that bad cut.

Duran... look at beyond glory and hear it in the words of Leonard himself.

Hearns... great spectacular victory (one of the best I can think of by any fighter, dont get me wrong), but Hearns was leading on the cards and gassed out, what about a rematch at 54 where Hearns was not weight drained, or a rematch at 12 rounds.

Hagler... SRL wins by a nothing in a fight where he bought himself everything he could, and retires without giving Hagler a rematch... to come back after Hagler was retired... ridiculous.

(BTW note how he would have lost to Hearns in a 12 round fight and to Hagler in a 15 round fight)

My position about Leonard is that he is a great fighter, but on the level of Pea, RJJ, PBF not on the level of the other greats I mentioned (Duran, Robinson, Armstrong). (Note also how PBF rematched Castilo and RJJ rematched Tarver, Leonard never did anything like that but it's those two who are insulted and called ******* and bitches)

Note that I am not blaming Leonard for all of those fights not happening, because he had his eye problem and whatnot. However his exploiting his power at the negotiating table against Duran, Hagler, Lalonde is a strong clue of how he and his team made their choices.

[SonnyG8R]

Im not sure if i put as much importance over a fighter granting another fighter a rematch after they have beat them.

Duran never gave Buchanan a rematch or Bizzaro, or Barkley etc...
U could say the same about many great fighters.

For me its what happened on the night.
People say Hagler was over the hill, but dont mention Leonard had only fought once in 5 years! And had never fought at middleweight, and beat possibly the greatest middleweight champion EVER!

Hearns in his prime was an ATG welterweight and Leonard KO'd him.
He CHOSE to try and outfight one of the greatest in-fighters ever in Duran. And did better than most fighters could of dreamed of doing.

Leonard deserves credit. He was ****in great and made an incredible comeback against ATG opposition.

Couldn't have said it better myself. To suggest that Leonard was overrated is simply ******ed...

[SonnyG8R]

Leonard victories against those four came under very specific cicrumstances that's why he should have gave them the rematches they were (mostly) screaming for.

the specific circumstances being

Benitez... this is the one where the rematch was needed the least but Benitez was cut and fighting more offensive than usual for him most likely because of that bad cut.

Duran... look at beyond glory and hear it in the words of Leonard himself.

Hearns... great spectacular victory (one of the best I can think of by any fighter, dont get me wrong), but Hearns was leading on the cards and gassed out, what about a rematch at 54 where Hearns was not weight drained, or a rematch at 12 rounds.

Hagler... SRL wins by a nothing in a fight where he bought himself everything he could, and retires without giving Hagler a rematch... to come back after Hagler was retired... ridiculous.

(BTW note how he would have lost to Hearns in a 12 round fight and to Hagler in a 15 round fight)

My position about Leonard is that he is a great fighter, but on the level of Pea, RJJ, PBF not on the level of the other greats I mentioned (Duran, Robinson, Armstrong). (Note also how PBF rematched Castilo and RJJ rematched Tarver, Leonard never did anything like that but it's those two who are insulted and called ******* and bitches)

Note that I am not blaming Leonard for all of those fights not happening, because he had his eye problem and whatnot. However his exploiting his power at the negotiating table against Duran, Hagler, Lalonde is a strong clue of how he and his team made their choices.

Imho, you give Duran too much credit. Yes he was the greatest lightweight ever. But when he moved up he quit against Leonard in the second fight. Sorry but quitters are never all time greats in my eyes, and then he stuck around so long it was pathetic. Fighting bums in highschool gymnasiums for a six pack of beer. I know I'm exaggerating, but just barely. The guy finished his career a slow, fat joke. A shadow of his former glory and I think it has to put a dent in his legacy...

[The Noose]

Leonard victories against those four came under very specific cicrumstances that's why he should have gave them the rematches they were (mostly) screaming for.

the specific circumstances being

Benitez... this is the one where the rematch was needed the least but Benitez was cut and fighting more offensive than usual for him most likely because of that bad cut.

Duran... look at beyond glory and hear it in the words of Leonard himself.

Hearns... great spectacular victory (one of the best I can think of by any fighter, dont get me wrong), but Hearns was leading on the cards and gassed out, what about a rematch at 54 where Hearns was not weight drained, or a rematch at 12 rounds.

Hagler... SRL wins by a nothing in a fight where he bought himself everything he could, and retires without giving Hagler a rematch... to come back after Hagler was retired... ridiculous.

(BTW note how he would have lost to Hearns in a 12 round fight and to Hagler in a 15 round fight)

My position about Leonard is that he is a great fighter, but on the level of Pea, RJJ, PBF not on the level of the other greats I mentioned (Duran, Robinson, Armstrong). (Note also how PBF rematched Castilo and RJJ rematched Tarver, Leonard never did anything like that but it's those two who are insulted and called ******* and bitches)

Note that I am not blaming Leonard for all of those fights not happening, because he had his eye problem and whatnot. However his exploiting his power at the negotiating table against Duran, Hagler, Lalonde is a strong clue of how he and his team made their choices.

RJJ, and PBF never beat anyone nearly as great as the fighters Leonard beat. RJJ gave Tarver a rematch and got KTFO. Giving fighters rematches doesnt carry much weight with me.

If the Hearns fight was 12 who knows what would have happened, maybe both fighters would have fought differntly, but the result the same?? (Leonard hurt Hearns long before he became tired, and could have stopped him earlier).
The Hagler fight was a ****in miracle and i always have Leonard winning clearly.