Prime Tyson could have been the best ever??

[Verstyle]

20 yearold tyson vs 20 yearold lewis = tyson wins

30 yearold tyson vs 30 yearold lewis = lewis wins

That I can believe.

[Brassangel]

We never really got Tyson in his prime, in all fairness. He needed the 4 years he was away to develop into a true champion, but he flushed that all away by raping someone. He probably would have been great, even into his (very) early 30's, after his loss to Douglas. After losing to Douglas, he fought Ruddock twice; a man who was definitely a better fighter than was Douglas. Razor Ruddock was the "bread-and-butter" build for beating Tyson, according to his haters. Ruddock was tall, had great reach, a jackhammer jab, wasn't afraid of Tyson, and had stamina. Mike proved that he did have heart, and managed to overcome another Douglas debacle waiting to happen...twice. Had he continued in this trend, instead of going to prison, he would have won the belt again, probably beating Holyfield, and then remained champion for another few years before age caught up to his style (a la Joe Frazier).

Since this is a speculative thread about his potential, I think that we need to include the Douglas loss as a learning point instead of pretending it didn't happen. He showed more heart and potential following his first loss than he did at any other point in his career. He was not the same following his exile, much like Ali.

As a side note: Douglas got into the best shape of his life for the fight with Tyson. He was cut, lean, fast, and had nothing to lose. On the other hand, Tyson trained less than four weeks for the fight, at half time each day, came in visibly softer than usual, just went through a divorce, and stayed up until 2:00 a.m. getting blasted. Douglas prepared for a championship fight, while Tyson prepared for a party. It's a part of boxing. It's a shame that it took this event to push Tyson into caring about winning, only to have him throw it all away anyway.

Every fighter goes into a fight afraid, or at least nervous. They're about to throw punches and take punches, for crying out loud! Tyson was afraid in many of his fights. Ali commented on being extremely shakey going into his fights with Liston. Fear doesn't lose fights automatically.

This thread is rediculous.

Tyson was not the best ever. We can only guess at what he "could have been." That should say more for how great he wasn't. Top 10 material, maybe, but "what if?" isn't a part of determining greatness.

[taws6]

tyson could have actually been better in his early 30s..who knows

[BKM-]

I doubt it. History(I talked to her yesterday) has shown us that swarmers don't stay fresh untill their 30s. Especially Tyson who started at 20, and would have fought Holyfield, Bowe, Mercer and maybe even Lewis and Foreman. Tyson already had some brutal wars with Ruddock, i think he would have beeen done in his early 30s after warriors like Holyfield and Mercer, the big guys like bowe and Lewis.

[StarshipTrooper]

I doubt it. History(I talked to her yesterday) has shown us that swarmers don't stay fresh untill their 30s. Especially Tyson who started at 20, and would have fought Holyfield, Bowe, Mercer and maybe even Lewis and Foreman. Tyson already had some brutal wars with Ruddock, i think he would have beeen done in his early 30s after warriors like Holyfield and Mercer, the big guys like bowe and Lewis.

An excellent point! Short armed pressure fighters always have a short prime. They have to work much harder than other fighters do to overcome their physical disadvantages and their bodies burn out (see Joe Frazier). Larry Holmes said as much about Tyson while Mike was still in his prime.

Poet

[Mintcar923]

Tyson may have been the best...

It's funny how most of you people put Tyson down and judge him based on his last couple of fights. It's obvious he was not the Tyson of old when he fought McBride. He was close to 39 years old. Mind you, Ali, Louis and Frazier were totally shot at this age and may very well have lost to someone of McBride's caliber. Also, it's a misconception that Tyson quit the fight. It was his trainer that insisted on the fight being stopped although Mike did admit he did not really enjoy fighting for the last 15 years. Tyson gave a spirited and somewhat desperate effort in the previous round before his worn-out body finally collapsed at the end. I thought his performances were more spirited in the McBride and D. Williams fights than Ali's performances in the Holmes and Berbick fights. I do realize that Tyson's opponents were not in the same class as Ali's but he definitely showed more spirit. Even after the terrible leg injury suffered in the D. Williams fight, he soldiered on for the next couple of rounds trying to win and even tried to get up using his useless leg.

Enough about the last two fights of his career. Let's go back to the beginning. No other fighter in the history of heavyweight boxing had the dominance that he enjoyed for five straight years. Up until the Buster Douglas fight, no-one had even come CLOSE to beating him or even knocked him down. He steamrolled over everyone he faced. He was hardly ever hit and he may have been the greatest puncher in the history of boxing. If you look at the early Tyson, you'll see a boxer with both a spectacular defence and offense. Perhaps only a young Ali had this kind of natural talent. In his younger years, he had fierce determination and a will to win that nobody else had. Not to mention, he had tremendous speed and deadly power.

I do admit the division wasn't at it's strongest when he was Undisputed Heavyweight Champ, but that wasn't his fault. While it wasn't at it's strongest, it was not at it's weakest either. Spinks and Holmes were still very formidable when they faced him and are in-fact legends. Yes, Spinks was a light heavy; but then so was Billy Conn who nearly dethroned Joe Louis. Spinks was the first man to defeat Larry Holmes who was a man who held the HEAVYWEIGHT title for more than seven years!!! Tony Tucker was undefeated when he fought Mike and a damn good boxer who had defeated Buster Douglas prior to losing to Tyson. Bonecrusher Smith and Frank Bruno weren't the greatest boxers but they sure could punch. Carl Williams and Pinklon Thomas had great jabs.

You cannot say that his wins were against a bunch of stiffs. It's unfortunate that Mike started to seriously slip after all the turmoil in his life. You could obviously tell in the first Bruno fight after the loss of Kevin Rooney. Kevin was the best trainer for Mike. For evidence, look at any fight where Kevin was his trainer. A great fighter needs a great trainer. Let me rephrase that. A great fighter needs the RIGHT trainer. Without Dundee, I don't think Ali would have been as successful. Without Goldman, I don't think Marciano would have made it to the top. It was evident in the Douglas fight that Tyson did not prepare for any sort of challenge and did not have a strong corner.

To make a long story short, Mike's career was cut in 1992 as he was convicted of date-**** in Indiana. He still maintains his innocence but over three years in an Indiana prison certainly did not help him regain his form. Yes, you could argue that Ali went a couple of years without fighting. But, he was free and had access to all the boxing training he wanted wheras Tyson did not. And still, as great as he was, Ali was not nearly the Ali that beat Sonny Liston twice prior to that.

The post-prison Tyson had only moderate success. He easily defeated Frank Bruno and Bruce Seldon and regained two of the belts he used to own before running into Evander Holyfield. If you look at the two Holyfield fights, Mike lost to as much to head-collisions as much as Holyfield's fists. You could see he was clearly hurt by the head butts and finally lost his sanity in the second fight because of it. I'm not taking anything away from Holy as I consider him a great fighter, as well. Maybe the butts were unintentional, but they certainly played a part in Tyson losing the way he did in those two fights. Again, another long lay-off as he was suspended from boxing.

A rusty Tyson finally came back and knocked out Frans Botha but you could see at this point Mike was starting to perform like an older fighter. I suppose he had his lifestyle to blame as much as time away from the ring. Tyson liked the nightlife and loved to party whereas other great heavies seemed to refrain from that type of lifestyle. By the time he faced Lewis, he was obviously a shell of his former self. There were also a lot of rumurs he may have been on meds at the time. Watching Lewis-Tyson was no different than watching Marciano-Louis. Although Lewis and Tyson were around the same age you could see one fighter was at the top of his game whereas the other fighter was practically shot.

So there you have it. How do we judge how good Tyson was? Yes, some of his victories were against fighters who were scared of him but then so were a lot of other of the great heavyweight's victories. You can't say Louis, Foreman, Lewis and Frazier did not have opponents that were scared of them. Thinking of Tyson opponents; I don't believe Holmes, Ruddock, Bruno, Tucker, Thomas and Berbick were afraid of him. For evidence, look at the staredowns. Look at the way Ruddock and Bruno came out and jumped on Tyson throwing everything but the kitchen sink at him. And also, you cannot say Tyson could not take a punch and didn't have heart as Ruddock, Bruno, Tucker and Smith hit him with their best shots and still couldn't put him down. It took Douglas and Lewis many rounds of hitting Tyson cleanly over and over to finally take him out. And we all know how powerful a puncher 6 ft 250 lb Lewis was. Any boxer will most likely go down if their eyes are so swelled that they can't see the punches coming.

And about Tyson vs. the Legends and who would win...

It could be debated until the end of time who would win. I'm sure if Tyson had not faced Douglas in his career, people would've said he'd have crushed him. I'm sure if Ali had not fought L. Spinks, people would have said he'd have easily beaten Spinks. You never quite know what's going to happen in a boxing match. That's what makes it so fun and intriguing. Everyone will have their own opinion and this will never change.

[StarshipTrooper]

It's funny how most of you people put Tyson down and judge him based on his last couple of fights. It's obvious he was not the Tyson of old when he fought McBride. He was close to 39 years old. Mind you, Ali, Louis and Frazier were totally shot at this age and may very well have lost to someone of McBride's caliber. Also, it's a misconception that Tyson quit the fight. It was his trainer that insisted on the fight being stopped although Mike did admit he did not really enjoy fighting for the last 15 years. Tyson gave a spirited and somewhat desperate effort in the previous round before his worn-out body finally collapsed at the end. I thought his performances were more spirited in the McBride and D. Williams fights than Ali's performances in the Holmes and Berbick fights. I do realize that Tyson's opponents were not in the same class as Ali's but he definitely showed more spirit. Even after the terrible leg injury suffered in the D. Williams fight, he soldiered on for the next couple of rounds trying to win and even tried to get up using his useless leg.

Enough about the last two fights of his career. Let's go back to the beginning. No other fighter in the history of heavyweight boxing had the dominance that he enjoyed for five straight years. Up until the Buster Douglas fight, no-one had even come CLOSE to beating him or even knocked him down. He steamrolled over everyone he faced. He was hardly ever hit and he may have been the greatest puncher in the history of boxing. If you look at the early Tyson, you'll see a boxer with both a spectacular defence and offense. Perhaps only a young Ali had this kind of natural talent. In his younger years, he had fierce determination and a will to win that nobody else had. Not to mention, he had tremendous speed and deadly power.

I do admit the division wasn't at it's strongest when he was Undisputed Heavyweight Champ, but that wasn't his fault. While it wasn't at it's strongest, it was not at it's weakest either. Spinks and Holmes were still very formidable when they faced him and are in-fact legends. Yes, Spinks was a light heavy; but then so was Billy Conn who nearly dethroned Joe Louis. Spinks was the first man to defeat Larry Holmes who was a man who held the HEAVYWEIGHT title for more than seven years!!! Tony Tucker was undefeated when he fought Mike and a damn good boxer who had defeated Buster Douglas prior to losing to Tyson. Bonecrusher Smith and Frank Bruno weren't the greatest boxers but they sure could punch. Carl Williams and Pinklon Thomas had great jabs.

You cannot say that his wins were against a bunch of stiffs. It's unfortunate that Mike started to seriously slip after all the turmoil in his life. You could obviously tell in the first Bruno fight after the loss of Kevin Rooney. Kevin was the best trainer for Mike. For evidence, look at any fight where Kevin was his trainer. A great fighter needs a great trainer. Let me rephrase that. A great fighter needs the RIGHT trainer. Without Dundee, I don't think Ali would have been as successful. Without Goldman, I don't think Marciano would have made it to the top. It was evident in the Douglas fight that Tyson did not prepare for any sort of challenge and did not have a strong corner.

To make a long story short, Mike's career was cut in 1992 as he was convicted of date-**** in Indiana. He still maintains his innocence but over three years in an Indiana prison certainly did not help him regain his form. Yes, you could argue that Ali went a couple of years without fighting. But, he was free and had access to all the boxing training he wanted wheras Tyson did not. And still, as great as he was, Ali was not nearly the Ali that beat Sonny Liston twice prior to that.

The post-prison Tyson had only moderate success. He easily defeated Frank Bruno and Bruce Seldon and regained two of the belts he used to own before running into Evander Holyfield. If you look at the two Holyfield fights, Mike lost to as much to head-collisions as much as Holyfield's fists. You could see he was clearly hurt by the head butts and finally lost his sanity in the second fight because of it. I'm not taking anything away from Holy as I consider him a great fighter, as well. Maybe the butts were unintentional, but they certainly played a part in Tyson losing the way he did in those two fights. Again, another long lay-off as he was suspended from boxing.

A rusty Tyson finally came back and knocked out Frans Botha but you could see at this point Mike was starting to perform like an older fighter. I suppose he had his lifestyle to blame as much as time away from the ring. Tyson liked the nightlife and loved to party whereas other great heavies seemed to refrain from that type of lifestyle. By the time he faced Lewis, he was obviously a shell of his former self. There were also a lot of rumurs he may have been on meds at the time. Watching Lewis-Tyson was no different than watching Marciano-Louis. Although Lewis and Tyson were around the same age you could see one fighter was at the top of his game whereas the other fighter was practically shot.

So there you have it. How do we judge how good Tyson was? Yes, some of his victories were against fighters who were scared of him but then so were a lot of other of the great heavyweight's victories. You can't say Louis, Foreman, Lewis and Frazier did not have opponents that were scared of them. Thinking of Tyson opponents; I don't believe Holmes, Ruddock, Bruno, Tucker, Thomas and Berbick were afraid of him. For evidence, look at the staredowns. Look at the way Ruddock and Bruno came out and jumped on Tyson throwing everything but the kitchen sink at him. And also, you cannot say Tyson could not take a punch and didn't have heart as Ruddock, Bruno, Tucker and Smith hit him with their best shots and still couldn't put him down. It took Douglas and Lewis many rounds of hitting Tyson cleanly over and over to finally take him out. And we all know how powerful a puncher 6 ft 250 lb Lewis was. Any boxer will most likely go down if their eyes are so swelled that they can't see the punches coming.

And about Tyson vs. the Legends and who would win...

It could be debated until the end of time who would win. I'm sure if Tyson had not faced Douglas in his career, people would've said he'd have crushed him. I'm sure if Ali had not fought L. Spinks, people would have said he'd have easily beaten Spinks. You never quite know what's going to happen in a boxing match. That's what makes it so fun and intriguing. Everyone will have their own opinion and this will never change.

You're not going to hear me deriding Tyson. While I don't think he's as good as his adoring fans make him out to be, I don't think he's crap either. What I WILL do is critically point out his weaknesses (as I do with ALL fighters) but I also point out his strengths.

Truth be told I've never had a problem with Tyson himself; it's always been his hard core fans that irritated me. They're easily the most obnoxious and overbearing fans in boxing.

Poet

[Energy]

Prime Tyson is probably the best ever, the only one I can see stopping him is Lennox, but still a prime Tyson vs a prime Lennox, I'd have to favor Tyson because in his prime he had it all, the short powerful jab to get inside, the hooks, the body shots, the head movement he was a ****ing machine in his prime, too bad he had a really short prime though...

[Yogi]

They're easily the most obnoxious and overbearing fans in boxing

There also the most hypocritical fans I've ever encountered, as well, and for evidence, check out Mintcar's comments on Tucker being "undefeated and a damn good boxer" even though he entered that fight going through his own turmoils with very recent management changes, drug issues, and even saw him in court on the very eve of his battle with Tyson dealing with legal issues with another former manager, Dennis Rappaport. But Tyson has some prefight issues against Douglas and it suddenly becomes "unfortunate".

Ditto in the case of Berbick (his prefight troubles with management, court dealing in the days leading up to, numerous hospital visits for puzzling breathing troubles only a couple/few days before, last minute addition of Dundee to his camp, the fact that he tried to back out for the Cooney fight that was propsed to him, etc., etc., etc) make Tyson's in Tokyo look like nothing at all), Thomas, Tubbs, Biggs, Holmes, Bruno*, as any research through the news archives will show that they were ALL dealing with a number of issues going into the Tyson fight, and if one was a fan of any of them, they could most certainly and just as easily write of Tyson's win against them much in the manner Tyson fans write off his loss to Douglas as "unfortunate"

*Bruno not scared? Well true, he did come to fight Tyson in that one, but all of those trips to the shrink in the prefight for the very reason of him being on edge over his meeting with Tyson would certainly bring question to that, or as some Tyson biographers like to put it;

"It's doubtful whether any challenger in the history of heavyweight boxing has been so messed about in the build-up to a championship contest as British hero Frank Bruno." - Mike Tyson: Release of Power

I don't want to turn this into a long winded rant on Tyson, but if one has the opinion that "no-one had even come CLOSE to beating him" then I might suggest that they watch the Tillis fight because CLOSE was exactly what that fight was.

Another thing is, yes Tyson did in fact have access to boxing training in prison, and in fact, his actual prison job was in the gymnasium helping out fellow inmates get in shape through boxing training, as well as him basically being in charge of the equipment and such. His daily training routine while in prison was written about back then and from Tyson's own mouth (worked out in the prison gymnasium as if preparing for a fight, so he said), he stated he used to get up every morning to train in the gym and his training also consisted of almost daily eight mile runs around the prison grounds. Heck, anybody who remembers that interview towards the end of his sentence or remember how he looked on his release, would certainly see that those stories of him training in prison must;ve been true because, by appearance, that was a very fit man that came out from behind bars, as he even looked like he weighed quite a bit less than what he did when fighting (certainly at least 30 or 40 pounds lighter than the Tyson, who was not in training at the time, who went into prison as a 240 pound man), and in fact his appearance from that point to the McNeeley fight lent much in the old argument about Tyson being on the roids when he came back to boxing.

Not saying Tyson came out as the same fighter he went in as, no, but only typed that to point out that training options were given to Tyson in prison and he took advantage of them.

Also for an opinion based point brought up, I'll certainly take the Tyson who fought the likes of Ruddock, Stewart and Tillman over the Rooney-trained Tyson who fought Ribalta when "there was a lack of old snap and sparkle in Tyson's work, and at times he was made to look almost pedestrian as he plodded after Ribalta throwing single punches rather than his usual dynamite combinations. (page 132 of Release of Power). From what I saw in the Ribalta fight, I'd say Tyson certainly had much better fights/performances during that time and even post-Douglas.

Tyson was good enough and did accomplish enough to be classified as a great fighter in my view, and he certainly added a bunch of interest to the division during his run. But can we stop with the hypocrisies when it comes to his opponents' situations and his own situations?

[Brassangel]

10 points for Yogi.

Also, I think that the Tyson who fought Ruddock was a step in the right direction. The loss to Douglas (and I will say it again), may have been good for him.