Rating old heavyweights?

[louis54]

You and that ass clown friend of yours pull obscure articles from a century ago out of your ass and think it is gospel. I provided first hand accounts from Arcel and Stillman, what would both men have to gain by colluding and lying?

You dismissed actual quotes from interviews in favor of articles with no writing credit. How do you know a journalist was actually in the gym that day to witness anything firsthand? You don’t.

I wipe my ass with your news snippets and anonymous sources. I’ll trust the testimony of the fighters and trainers who knew him or fought him. Langford said Dempsey was the greatest fighter he had ever seen. Guess he was lying too, lol. You casuals are something else. You’ll do anything to try and discredit he man while being fans of lesser fighters.

Some posters on boxing forums are ignorant of boxing, very much so

[billeau2]

Arcel was probably the biggest Dempsey fanboy ever, and his hyperbolic tellings of Jack's greatness should be taken with a grain of salt.

That Tunney had his own reasons for talking up Dempsey is surely only too obvious!

As for Stillman watching Dempsey ko'ing Galento with the hardest punch he ever saw... well, that simply never happened! Just one of boxing's many myths.

Just an aside on Tunney. Interesting guy. Obviously well read, intelligent, imo one of the very best fighters period... There is a thread here and some of Tunney's musings are posted, I do not remember if I posted them, or someone else...

With all his intellect Tunney had some strange conclusions, the kind that make one think and question how much obvious hyperbolic remarks should be taken in earnest. For example, Tunney believed that a boxer would have no trouble besting an Ape, an even a Gorilla, given the qualities of a good punch... That is a crazy thing to say!

[Dr. Z]

Just an aside on Tunney. Interesting guy. Obviously well read, intelligent, imo one of the very best fighters period... There is a thread here and some of Tunney's musings are posted, I do not remember if I posted them, or someone else...

With all his intellect Tunney had some strange conclusions, the kind that make one think and question how much obvious hyperbolic remarks should be taken in earnest. For example, Tunney believed that a boxer would have no trouble besting an Ape, an even a Gorilla, given the qualities of a good punch... That is a crazy thing to say!

Well back in his time, Boxers did fight large animals. Carnera for example boxed a muzzled Bear. I have seen it, and by the looks of it the bear who's paws are wrapped up was about even with Carnera.

Tunney I think did the same and said after one good body shot, the animal would retreat. He was correct.

However there are some animals that are too dangerous for the circus. A polar bear for example. That animal can kill you in seconds. Also you don't see anyone wrestling Crocodiles, only they're tamer cousins the Alligator who lacks stamina and goes to sleep once rolled over.

[Marchegiano]

Well back in his time, Boxers did fight large animals. Carnera for example boxed a muzzled Bear. I have seen it, and by the looks of it the bear who's paws are wrapped up was about even with Carnera.

Tunney I think did the same and said after one good body shot, the animal would retreat. He was correct.

However there are some animals that are too dangerous for the circus. A polar bear for example. That animal can kill you in seconds. Also you don't see anyone wrestling Crocodiles, only they're tamer cousins the Alligator who lacks stamina and goes to sleep once rolled over.

Let me start by saying I have no point I just thought you'd think this anecdote is interesting.


Kinda goes back to vaudeville and when performance art had really started to make an economy and industry around itself.

Eugene Sandow was only like 180 and five foot mids, but, he's one of the first to put on a strongman style show. He's lift some weights and challenge the crowd to see if any man can match him, he'd pose and kind of invented body builder's poses, and for a time he wrestled a male lion. around abouts the mid-1800s

The lion had mittens to stop the scratch and was chained so it could not injure the fans.

Sandow being nervous the big cat would just body him had a practice run. It's said in the go with no crowd the lion was fierce and scary but Eugene was able to pin him. Comfortable now, Sandow went on with prep for his show.

He did his body builder routine, he did his strongman routine, then he went for the lion 'rasslin' but the big male lion was pacified. The lion simply laid down for Eugene like a pet dog might. Having not much to work with Sandow grabbed the big cat's foot and rolled him over.

"catch a tiger by it's toe" I dunno if it came from this but was popularized by it if it didn't. The headlines buried Sandow but they were hot all the same and made him a very big star in the vaudeville era.


Boxing picks up the trick a generation later and lays it down the in mid 1900s. Meaning there is about 100 years worth of man vs beast in a time when record keeping isn't so horrible as ancient Colosseum stuff.


Sandow probably should have gotten a bear.

[billeau2]

Well back in his time, Boxers did fight large animals. Carnera for example boxed a muzzled Bear. I have seen it, and by the looks of it the bear who's paws are wrapped up was about even with Carnera.

Tunney I think did the same and said after one good body shot, the animal would retreat. He was correct.

However there are some animals that are too dangerous for the circus. A polar bear for example. That animal can kill you in seconds. Also you don't see anyone wrestling Crocodiles, only they're tamer cousins the Alligator who lacks stamina and goes to sleep once rolled over.

If any of those animals was triggered to "fight" they would not retreat, that is called a hint. Sure you take a docile animal and work within behavior trained...

Do you really think whipping a tiger like a trainer does would stop a Tiger intent on harming?

This is just plain silly... There is no way Canera could beat up an ape that was intent, behavoirially triggered to "fight" much less an apex preditor. An intelligent man like Tunney should know this.

here is an analogy: In India they train an elephant from infancy to respect a leash of string... Now sure, as a pup the elephant cannot resist the string... Well, the elephant learns to think the string will restrain and it works on adults... Now my friend let me ask you something... Do you think for a NY minute, if that adult elephant resisted that string, it would not be succesful?

If you do think twice... and if you think any wild animal in actual fight mode would recoil at a body shot? think 20 times...

[billeau2]

Let me start by saying I have no point I just thought you'd think this anecdote is interesting.


Kinda goes back to vaudeville and when performance art had really started to make an economy and industry around itself.

Eugene Sandow was only like 180 and five foot mids, but, he's one of the first to put on a strongman style show. He's lift some weights and challenge the crowd to see if any man can match him, he'd pose and kind of invented body builder's poses, and for a time he wrestled a male lion. around abouts the mid-1800s

The lion had mittens to stop the scratch and was chained so it could not injure the fans.

Sandow being nervous the big cat would just body him had a practice run. It's said in the go with no crowd the lion was fierce and scary but Eugene was able to pin him. Comfortable now, Sandow went on with prep for his show.

He did his body builder routine, he did his strongman routine, then he went for the lion 'rasslin' but the big male lion was pacified. The lion simply laid down for Eugene like a pet dog might. Having not much to work with Sandow grabbed the big cat's foot and rolled him over.

"catch a tiger by it's toe" I dunno if it came from this but was popularized by it if it didn't. The headlines buried Sandow but they were hot all the same and made him a very big star in the vaudeville era.


Boxing picks up the trick a generation later and lays it down the in mid 1900s. Meaning there is about 100 years worth of man vs beast in a time when record keeping isn't so horrible as ancient Colosseum stuff.


Sandow probably should have gotten a bear.

Sure we can demean animals...

Uncle Jimmy is a strevedore, weighing in at 220 soaking wet, and has muscles on his muscles...and buys his adorable nephew, who at 10 has taken a few boxing lessons, a nice set of mufflers... There goes Jimmy sticking his chin out ohhh and he is feigning being KO'ed!! how cute, "hey marge look your kid, hes a natural, did you get if for the family archives." Jimmy gets up and in an act of great affection that should be a "clue" picks up his nephew and tosses him a few times in the air as they both laugh it up and as the nephew says "gee Jimmy these are swell!"

Any Tiger that submits to a pin does so because it wants to do so... There is a film of a man who I have great respect for... He has lived with a pride of Lions since the pride were infants. They playrough and he sees them, to the chagrin of the photagrapher the guy literally jumps into the scrum of Lions growing and fighting in a big ball... when he jumps in, there is the sound of him in addition to the cats growling at each other... to the suprise of the photographer the sound of the man is not agony, not screams, but laughter....

Turns out these cats KNOW and adjust because this cat is a long pig! They known better and play at his level... And with that example? I will ask anyone who claims any man besting a wild beast happens to really think about it.

[Marchegiano]

Sure we can demean animals...

Uncle Jimmy is a strevedore, weighing in at 220 soaking wet, and has muscles on his muscles...and buys his adorable nephew, who at 10 has taken a few boxing lessons, a nice set of mufflers... There goes Jimmy sticking his chin out ohhh and he is feigning being KO'ed!! how cute, "hey marge look your kid, hes a natural, did you get if for the family archives." Jimmy gets up and in an act of great affection that should be a "clue" picks up his nephew and tosses him a few times in the air as they both laugh it up and as the nephew says "gee Jimmy these are swell!"

Any Tiger that submits to a pin does so because it wants to do so... There is a film of a man who I have great respect for... He has lived with a pride of Lions since the pride were infants. They playrough and he sees them, to the chagrin of the photagrapher the guy literally jumps into the scrum of Lions growing and fighting in a big ball... when he jumps in, there is the sound of him in addition to the cats growling at each other... to the suprise of the photographer the sound of the man is not agony, not screams, but laughter....

Turns out these cats KNOW and adjust because this cat is a long pig! They known better and play at his level... And with that example? I will ask anyone who claims any man besting a wild beast happens to really think about it.

I don't know much about the story beyond what I said to be honest but I don't think it was ever meant to portray the lion in a bad light. To my knowledge it seemed too obvious to the public that although big he was still a good kitty.I don't imagine Sandow got a wild lion, but maybe, stranger things have happened.

Mostly the gaff was on Sandow himself. He wanted to promote a ferocious beast being tamed by man's might but all he did was play with his oversized pet cat in public.

Bears do the same thing, but, it looks a bit scarier in my opinion. Because of the standing up. I don't think when I watch dudes wrestle their pet bear they're actually overpowering the bear. Still scary as **** with their heavy asses.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Fitz would train with his pet Lion, primarily running and wrestling him while on the loose in public.

[billeau2]

I don't know much about the story beyond what I said to be honest but I don't think it was ever meant to portray the lion in a bad light. To my knowledge it seemed too obvious to the public that although big he was still a good kitty.I don't imagine Sandow got a wild lion, but maybe, stranger things have happened.

Mostly the gaff was on Sandow himself. He wanted to promote a ferocious beast being tamed by man's might but all he did was play with his oversized pet cat in public.

Bears do the same thing, but, it looks a bit scarier in my opinion. Because of the standing up. I don't think when I watch dudes wrestle their pet bear they're actually overpowering the bear. Still scary as **** with their heavy asses.

Not you, but I used your post to dovetail...my beef is with Tunney!

And if he were right here in front of me? after I informed him of my beef I would look him straight in the eye, wag my finger slowly and say "Don't make me make you hurt me Gene!"

M, I want you to know that my posting behavoir with you is a reflection of the fact I feel so comfortable with you as a poster, and the tremendous respect I have for the research you do. If I ever get out of line? Well see the quote to Tunney above, and read it carefully lol.

[billeau2]

- -Fitz would train with his pet Lion, primarily running and wrestling him while on the loose in public.

See to me that is different situation. I wrestle with my dogs... I also know that if they wanted to hurt me I would not blow smoke up an audiences collective rear and claim I could destroy them in a confrontation lol.

Wrestling is a great way to train, and big cats like to do so... ditto for doing roadwork...My dog makes me HAVE to do my roadwork lol.

I just think it feeds the "stupid" when people believe that a powerful human being could, for example, stop a charging Gorilla, with a punch in the nose...

Interesting stat: Sumo charging forward? can generate to tons of force! That is pretty impressive imo.