could tyson have beat ali if tyson fought like he fought mitch green?

[Abe Attell]

Holmes gave it his best, but let's face it, he was fat and washed up and nowhere near the talker Ali was. All Holmes could muster was that Tyson was gonna go to jail. So what, who didn't know that? But Ali would've gave him some degrading nickname and made him the butt of jokes. It would've been brutal on Tyson.

Yes, but this is why he had D'amato and Rooney...given D'amato died, he still had Rooney to push him.

D'amato said that Patterson could of beaten Ali if it hadn't been for his bad back...I take it that D'amato knew how to beat Ali, he just needed the fighter to do it.

Tyson's mental strength, like stated many times before by others, what based on who he was hanging around.


Ali would still fustrate him though...he would just continue to tie Mike up, and that pisses him off...Mike likes to fight, he needs you to fight, that is what his style is based on...if you don't fight back, there are little, to no openings...Tyson is a machine that needs to see openings in order to perform.

[Verstyle]

Yes, but this is why he had D'amato and Rooney...given D'amato died, he still had Rooney to push him.

D'amato said that Patterson could of beaten Ali if it hadn't been for his bad back...I take it that D'amato knew how to beat Ali, he just needed the fighter to do it.

Tyson's mental strength, like stated many times before by others, what based on who he was hanging around.

also tyson was rediculed in the news alot also. on a grand stage.but he still performed well. so his mental game to me is pretty overrated

[Abe Attell]

=Hot Topic;1987837]Let me tell you something that a wise man once told me. People who are born round don't die square. You don't change your spots. Sure, we can only see externally what Tyson wanted us to see in the 80s, but from what the people closest to him said, he always had a dog in his heart. He was always lacking something that optimists didn't care to expound on because it can't be measured statistically. That's why I always say, it didn't matter that Tyson went to jail and fought Holyfield later in his career. Holyfield would've whipped Tyson back in 1991 also.

I have mixed feelings about that:

I wasn't much of a fighter when I was a litle kid, but then my Father took me to a place to learn how to fight and I was taught by some tough S.O.B.s that didn't put up with ****...I went from a kid that didn't want to fight to a kid that didn't mind to fight, if I had to...it proved to me that a "Teacher/Mentor" is key.

I don't know, maybe it was my Mom that made me a ***** when I was a kid or maybe I was just scared ****less of my huge father that told me "don't fight or you will fight me"...I did show some crazy tendencies that maybe were surpressed by my Parents, but were released by my Teachers/Mentors.

Adults can really **** you up when you are a kid, stopping you from being who you really are, and should be...it takes another Teacher to come along to see that potential and release it, release you.

Ever hear "Leaders are made, not born"?

So I also take it you don't believe in EVOLUTION?

Tyson's problem to me is that he wasn't D'amato's finished product, like D'amato was able to do with Patterson and Torres. Tyson was really ****ed up when he met D'amato, and Cus said it himself, that you have to gain the trust of a person, break him down, and then rebuild him...There just wasn't enough time because Cus died before Mike was matured.


The others side to my feeling is that there is the possibility that "Nature" creates certain types of people in order to keep "ORDER"...


It's just to long to go into and I don't feel like typing everything up to go into everything and backing it up.

People look at Clay-Liston I and say "Oh, Liston is slow, he ain't **** but a hoe and a trick." Let me tell you something, Liston was quick, but against a guy like Ali, he had no choice but to slow it down and try to figure out the puzzle in front of him. Tyson would be slowed by the jabs, the feints, and Ali would consistently get off first. I'm telling you, just cuz Tyson's a scary dude, Tyson's from Brooklyn, he's back cuz he's from the streets, none of that matters when you're in the ring with a guy who has your number mentally. Tyson wasn't smart enough or disciplined enough to get the better of a guy like Muhammad Ali.

Yes, we all know this, but like I have stated, Tyson's brain was his team or to put it better,
"Tyson was only as good as the Program you put into him"-Bob Arum

[Franko]

Let me tell you something that a wise man once told me. People who are born round don't die square. You don't change your spots. Sure, we can only see externally what Tyson wanted us to see in the 80s, but from what the people closest to him said, he always had a dog in his heart. He was always lacking something that optimists didn't care to expound on because it can't be measured statistically. That's why I always say, it didn't matter that Tyson went to jail and fought Holyfield later in his career. Holyfield would've whipped Tyson back in 1991 also.

Biggs was nothing compared to Ali, nothing at all. Biggs also had what, 15 fights when they fought? Comparing the mental game of Muhammad Ali and Tyrell Biggs is like comparing Larry Donald's right hand to Sonny Liston. It isn't happening.

I'm just being real. I'm a proponent of the mental aspect of boxing. Boxing is a lot more to do with mental than physical, and I don't think Tyson would have it to go deep with a guy like Muhammad Ali. Sure, there would always be the possibility that Tyson could get in a left hook, which was the only punch that Ali seemed vulnerable. And if he jabbed to Ali's chest, he'd have some marked success. But in all actuality, what else would Tyson do? Tyson would be reaching against a bigger man who was good at maintaining his defense and keeping his distance well. Tyson would be reaching all night and when Tyson got inside, nobody was better at tying their man up that Ali.

People look at Clay-Liston I and say "Oh, Liston is slow, he ain't **** but a hoe and a trick." Let me tell you something, Liston was quick, but against a guy like Ali, he had no choice but to slow it down and try to figure out the puzzle in front of him. Tyson would be slowed by the jabs, the feints, and Ali would consistently get off first. I'm telling you, just cuz Tyson's a scary dude, Tyson's from Brooklyn, he's back cuz he's from the streets, none of that matters when you're in the ring with a guy who has your number mentally. Tyson wasn't smart enough or disciplined enough to get the better of a guy like Muhammad Ali.

****in brilliant post!!!

IMO Tyson at his best was enough to give any heavyweight in history trouble, but this post is excellent.

[gangland_kingpi]

i'm looking at the frazier vs.ali fight and when frazier goes in he gets hit alot cause his hands were down,but he still got to ali. now with tyson when he went in with mitch green he used wide bob and weaves and kept his hands up and threw more then just the left look when going in,and threw the jab to get in also.I know u cant compare green to ali but they both threw alot in that fight and tyson reminded me of frazier in that fight. example of how tyson fought green.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBChe576oRI

For arguments sake lets assume that both Tyson and Ali were at their best.

I believe it is pointless bringing Ali's fights in to the equation because Ali would have used appropriate tactics against Tyson. Ali was a master tactician and would have adjusted to Tysons style accordingly.

However, I do not claim to know exactly what tactics Ali would have used to beat Tyson if I did I would be a all time great like him. Look what Ali did to Foremans heavy punching, he did that by sitting on the ropes and although George didn't have the speed Tyson had, Ali didn't run so it negates that point.

Tyson hasn't fought anyone near the standard of Ali and I know your not suggesting that he has but Ali fought some truly world class opposition. There's no comparison between these fighters.

[Mr. Ryan]

Yes, but this is why he had D'amato and Rooney...given D'amato died, he still had Rooney to push him.

D'amato said that Patterson could of beaten Ali if it hadn't been for his bad back...I take it that D'amato knew how to beat Ali, he just needed the fighter to do it.

Tyson's mental strength, like stated many times before by others, what based on who he was hanging around.


Ali would still fustrate him though...he would just continue to tie Mike up, and that pisses him off...Mike likes to fight, he needs you to fight, that is what his style is based on...if you don't fight back, there are little, to no openings...Tyson is a machine that needs to see openings in order to perform.

Oh yeah, D'Amato for years said that he could architect a fighter to beat Ali, and he probably could've. Truth is though, Tyson never won a difficult fight and Ali thrived in those circumstances.

[LondonRingRules]

Tyson hasn't fought anyone near the standard of Ali and I know your not suggesting that he has but Ali fought some truly world class opposition. There's no comparison between these fighters.

** Tucker and Briggs employed a hit and run Ali style against Tyson. Both were bigger than Ali, probably stronger and close in speed.

Frazier was a bob and weaver like Tyson and similar sized. All will still have style and quality differences though.

Ali beat some better fighters. Tyson was more dominant against most of his comp whereas Ali looked truly dreadful at times.

Peak to peak I favor Tyson.

[SABBATH]

** Tucker and Briggs employed a hit and run Ali style against Tyson. Both were bigger than Ali, probably stronger and close in speed.

Biggs and Tucker close in speed to Ali? Seeing how most credible historians rank Ali as the fastest of heavyweight champions, then Tucker and Biggs under you're logic must be ranked pretty high up there as well.

Bigger, stronger and almost as fast as Ali. I can't imagine how a world title eluded Tyrell Biggs who instead was chased out of the top ten rankings with back to back stoppage losses to all time greats Francesco Damiani and Gary Mason.

[butterfly1964]

Biggs and Tucker close in speed to Ali? Seeing how most credible historians rank Ali as the fastest of heavyweight champions, then Tucker and Biggs under you're logic must be ranked pretty high up there as well.

Bigger, stronger and almost as fast as Ali. I can't imagine how a world title eluded Tyrell Biggs who instead was chased out of the top ten rankings with back to back stoppage losses to all time greats Francesco Damiani and Gary Mason.

Ahahahahahahahah, LondonRingRules, OWNED!!!!!!!!

[kerrminator]

Ali certainly had a faster Jab than Tyson but then again he had a faster jab than Norton aswell and he managed to beat him(both times according to alot of fans)