Is Rocky Marciano as respected as he should be?

Ring Magazine founder Nat Fleischer wrote that in terms of boxing ability Marciano was "crude, wild swinging, awkward, and missed heavily. In his bout with light heavyweight champion Archie Moore, for example, he missed almost two-thirds of the fifty odd punches he tossed when he had Archie against the ropes, a perfect target for the kill." http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rocky.html

As time goes on, guys from generations further and further back fade from collective memory. No one alive saw Rock fight. You can only surmise so much from looking at grainy film food and reading books; the context just isn't as strong. It's the same reason you don't ever see Antonio Moreno, Dolores del Rio, or Paola Negri at the top of great actors lists. Who? Exactly. The funny thing is that the generation that saw Marciano fight didn't think he was all that great. It's only with the more recent generations that he has become overrated and a sacred cow that you can't criticize.

I don't know how you can see someone retire, come back literally to pay the IRS, get a string of 8 wins against fighters who were not the best of the time, and then still think it's a good win. Just look at his body, he was clearly past it and out of shape. If Wladimir Klitschko came back today due to financial issues, and fights 8 lower tier HW's and wins and then fights Wilder and gets KO'ed...does that make it a good win even though everyone knows Wlad is too old and way past his best? Literally no fan in the world would care about that win. Not even Wilder fans would see that as a legit win. Boxing is prize fighting, they fight for money. Whether that money is for their family, for cocaine, or for the IRS makes no difference to me. Note that Wlad would be 45, not 37 like Louis was vs. Marciano, so people would have more skepticism, but if Wlad came back and fought 7 lower tier guys in as many months for warm up fights and then KO'd Anthony Joshua (the #1 contender to Fury), he'd certainly be credible. If Wlad then lost to Wilder, sure it should be counted as a good win for Wilder. Wlad would have proven he was still good by KO'ing AJ. Wilder's hypothetical win over Wlad at that point wouldn't count the same as a win over prime Wlad, but it would still be a good win. If a guy has proven he's talented in the ring by recent victories over top contenders, that's what it takes.

I recall that thread here. It's an interesting fact, but idk that it truly means anything or even what you are suggesting. I've not seen a lot of stats on how many big punching greats retired fighters to begin with, although I recall compiling some myself in the thread discussed, to gauge much of a take on if it's impressive in some way or if Rocky was just an outlier cuz he fought more older guys, near retirement guys or etc type opponents. I just looked at the ages of the likes of ****ell, La Starza, Matthews, Bashore, Layne and such and they were all at good ages when they fought him. ****ell was the only one who he seemed to just full on retire not long after due to the brutality of that victory. He did seem to put them all on a downward slide though so it sounded like his beatings had lasting effects. Some guys do have the ability to destroy a fighter like that. Wilder is one that'd spring to mind. Szpilka went from taking a load of good punches from wilder with ease to just getting destroyed from every punch that lands clean after his chin was shattered. Not to say his chin was ever great but he had recovery powers beforehand.

As time goes on, guys from generations further and further back fade from collective memory. No one alive saw Rock fight. You can only surmise so much from looking at grainy film food and reading books; the context just isn't as strong. It's the same reason you don't ever see Antonio Moreno, Dolores del Rio, or Paola Negri at the top of great actors lists. Who? Exactly.

Underrated. Super small HW he was like 5’9” 185lbs with an extremely short reach for a HW

Pac is still a high quality fighter, #10 P4P in The Ring. You are crazy if you think someone (e.g. DSG) beating Pac now wouldn't count as a quality win when looking back on that guy's career. It may not mean he could beat a prime Pac (although it would at least open the discussion), but that's not what we're talking about. Joe Louis was the #1 contender prior to the KO loss to Marciano. https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_1950 After that ranking, but before the fight with Marciano, as the #1 contender Joe Louis KO'd the #2 contender on that list. Joe Louis was still #6 ranked HW after the KO loss to Marciano. https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_1951 It's a quality win, regardless of whether Joe Louis was better earlier in his career. What mental illness did Louis have? He was broke and needed money, like plenty of boxers past & present. Idk who in their right mind would think DSG beating Pacquiao would be a good win. Good name? Yeah, good win? Over a past prime 40 year old Pacquiao. Also, if we compiled a list of fighters who were ranked highly late in their career, while past prime and at an advanced age, before losing their last fight, the list would probably be fairly long. It is widely accepted in sports, that a mid 30s athlete is usually past his best physical form. Physical forms are magnified in boxing due to the physicality of the sport and the energy you need to go through training camp and even go through 4-5 rounds. It becomes really tough and actually the Average Joe would be huffing and puffing after 1 three minute round. The physicality of boxing even has scientific research on it, showing it is actually the most physically demanding sport in the world. Source: https://www.espn.com/espn/page2/sportSkills Roy Jones Jr at 34 years old, barely got by Antonio Tarver. Despite this, after this win, he was going into age 35 ranked as the #1 P4P fighter, #4 ranked HW, and The Ring Champion at 175lbs. He then lost 3 times in a row, to Antonio Tarver and Glen Johnson, including two brutal KO's. RJJ's ranking does not prevent him from being past his best. Yes, great fighters will always be ranked highly even late in their careers when they are past it. It takes a good fighter to expose that. I mentioned this in the thread earlier, that Marciano was a good fighter and good puncher and will definitely help you when fighting an old legend. I don't know how you can see someone retire, come back literally to pay the IRS, get a string of 8 wins against fighters who were not the best of the time, and then still think it's a good win. Just look at his body, he was clearly past it and out of shape. If Wladimir Klitschko came back today due to financial issues, and fights 8 lower tier HW's and wins and then fights Wilder and gets KO'ed...does that make it a good win even though everyone knows Wlad is too old and way past his best? Literally no fan in the world would care about that win. Not even Wilder fans would see that as a legit win.

Let's go with some facts: 1) One poll, out of 17, had him 11th. 2) All of the others had him top 10. 3) His average in the 17 polls was 6.8. Spin that however you want. A real man would be like 'OK, cool.' But you can keep doing whatever it is you do exactly. Very weird guy and not very intellectually honest. You posted the info that refuted the narrative you want to be true!!! Lol and then you try and say that info proves your point, when it clearly doesn't, in black and white. Super nerds and women dominate this site. What a shame. Five lists had him in the top 5. Every other list had him toward the bottom of the top 10 or out of it. Them's the facts.

I appreciate everyone's achievements. No argument from me Rocky was among the best of his day. BUT when we get into these atg dork debates or just overrated or underrated like got brought up here we gotta be realer & take things apart a little more. Looking at Rocky's title run idk that it's THAT quality a run outside of the name value. 1952 KO13 JJW, 38yrs old, 2nd to last fight 1953 KO1 JJW, 39yrs old, last fight KO11 LaStarza, lost next 3 fights before a 2yr layoff 1954 W15 Ezzard KO8 Ezzard 1955 KO9 C#ckell, 3rd to last fight, KO'd quicker in last 2 fights KO9 Moore, 38yrs old He fought old guys & guys on their way out primarily. The Ezzard W's are the most impressive by a mile cuz he was prime & wasn't on his way out. To be fair many many fighters who fought Rocky retired not too long after because it seems he kinda destroyed a lot of them physically and mentally.

You seem to get confused easily. Marciano is overrated today by people like the ones on here. But boxing experts from back in the day rated him correctly. Which is at the bottom of the heavyweight top 10 or out of it. Understand? Let's go with some facts: 1) One poll, out of 17, had him 11th. 2) All of the others had him top 10. 3) His average in the 17 polls was 6.8. Spin that however you want. A real man would be like 'OK, cool.' But you can keep doing whatever it is you do exactly. Very weird guy and not very intellectually honest. You posted the info that refuted the narrative you want to be true!!! Lol and then you try and say that info proves your point, when it clearly doesn't, in black and white. Super nerds and women dominate this site. What a shame.

He wasn't included on 2 of the 3 the all-time pfp lists. He was included on 16 of 17 all-time top 10 HW lists and was 11th on the 17th one. Not trying to needle you but you said he is overrated, then said he isn't. Some people, on here and otherwise, have him as high as 3, and most say he is top 10. That's about what all those polls show. Only guy who may have him higher than that is the Marchegiano guy and even he may only have him about 3rd. You seem to get confused easily. Marciano is overrated today by people like the ones on here. But boxing experts from back in the day rated him correctly. Which is at the bottom of the heavyweight top 10 or out of it. Understand?

He is more respected than he should be. Because of the undefeated record. Boxers and sports journalists of his time correctly viewed him as crude and inferior to greats like Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis. Look again. He wasn't even included on a couple of lists. The point being that Marciano was only considered top 5 on five lists and not on the rest. I would have to do the math to double check your average rating. Assuming you are correct he is ranked about 7 the majority of the time. Which is as it should be. He's closer to the bottom of a heavyweight top 10 then he is to the top. That's the proper respect he deserves. Not more. He wasn't included on 2 of the 3 the all-time pfp lists. He was included on 16 of 17 all-time top 10 HW lists and was 11th on the 17th one. Not trying to needle you but you said he is overrated, then said he isn't. Some people, on here and otherwise, have him as high as 3, and most say he is top 10. That's about what all those polls show. Only guy who may have him higher than that is the Marchegiano guy and even he may only have him about 3rd.

You need to learn how to read. Of the 17 lists you cited, only once was he outside of the top 10. And he was 11th on that list. His overall average rating on the 17 lists, is 6.8. Look again. He wasn't even included on a couple of lists. The point being that Marciano was only considered top 5 on five lists and not on the rest. I would have to do the math to double check your average rating. Assuming you are correct he is ranked about 7 the majority of the time. Which is as it should be. He's closer to the bottom of a heavyweight top 10 then he is to the top. That's the proper respect he deserves. Not more.

Beat everyone = weak era It's ironic that there's more credit in avenging defeat than there is in avoiding defeat. But it's all very subjective. Sven Ottke beat everyone too. That alone doesn't mean anything without context.

Incorrect, he is usually low in the top 10 or completely out of it. The times he gets ranked in the top 5 are quite infrequent. You need to learn how to read. Of the 17 lists you cited, only once was he outside of the top 10. And he was 11th on that list. His overall average rating on the 17 lists, is 6.8.

51 year old, past prime Bernard Hopkins was favored to beat the younger Joe Smith Jr. Those odds can’t be used to say Smith Jr fought a formidable version of Hopkins. Ever. Odds can’t change at what stage a fighter is. Odds don’t prevent someone from being way past it. If anything if Louis was really favored at 37 and with mental health issues over the younger and fresher Marciano, it says more about Marciano than it does about Louis. Here is an example fantasy fight: If Manny Pacquiao fights Danny Garcia next month, he would be favored, probably by a pretty wide margin. However, Pacquiao is past prime. People/odds makers don’t care how past it he is. He’s Manny Pacquiao. Pacquiao is an ATG, HOF’er, has better wins, and will retire as being tons better than DSG. But then DSG KO’’s him, catches him off guard in an exchange. Pacquiao goes out cold. Pacquiao announced his retirement from the sport after the fight. Literally no boxing fan on Earth would end up caring about that outcome. And no, Pacquiao being favored didn’t mean he was still a good opponent. It just would mean that people thought so lowly of DSG and so highly of Pacquiao, that they didn’t think that DSG could beat even a way past prime version of Pacquiao. But look at that, DSG proved everyone wrong in this fantasy fight. He actually was able to beat the past prime HOF’er that would have wiped the floor with him as far back as 5-10 years ago. Round of applause for DSG for beating a Pacquiao who was a shell of his former self. Pac is still a high quality fighter, #10 P4P in The Ring. You are crazy if you think someone (e.g. DSG) beating Pac now wouldn't count as a quality win when looking back on that guy's career. It may not mean he could beat a prime Pac (although it would at least open the discussion), but that's not what we're talking about. Joe Louis was the #1 contender prior to the KO loss to Marciano. https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_1950 After that ranking, but before the fight with Marciano, as the #1 contender Joe Louis KO'd the #2 contender on that list. Joe Louis was still #6 ranked HW after the KO loss to Marciano. https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_1951 It's a quality win, regardless of whether Joe Louis was better earlier in his career. What mental illness did Louis have? He was broke and needed money, like plenty of boxers past & present.

Beat everyone = weak era It's ironic that there's more credit in avenging defeat than there is in avoiding defeat. But it's all very subjective. It's true, like how Ali's era was considered strong even though it really wasn't all that stronger than any regular era. It's easy to single out the limited abilities of Frazier and Foreman. Norton was the most complete guy of that era and then again I thought he beat Ali every time they fought. Got unlucky against Holmes too, he was just unlucky in general.

I don't deny he retired at a good time. I just think with his resume filled with mostly older names it gives him question marks that will never be answered & always be speculated on by the atg dorks. Maybe he'd have KO'd Sonny in 3, maybe Sonny would have KO'd him in 3. Who's to say who's right. No one. Let the what ifs remain what they were I guess and appreciate the achievements of the man. He beat some very good fighters apart from the old guys. Hell all those old guys were still serviceable too, none of them were shot.

Beat everyone = weak era It's ironic that there's more credit in avenging defeat than there is in avoiding defeat. But it's all very subjective.

Joe Louis was the betting favorite in the Marciano fight. He wasn't considered totally washed up, or bookies would've lost their shirts. 51 year old, past prime Bernard Hopkins was favored to beat the younger Joe Smith Jr. Those odds can’t be used to say Smith Jr fought a formidable version of Hopkins. Ever. Odds can’t change at what stage a fighter is. Odds don’t prevent someone from being way past it. If anything if Louis was really favored at 37 and with mental health issues over the younger and fresher Marciano, it says more about Marciano than it does about Louis. Here is an example fantasy fight: If Manny Pacquiao fights Danny Garcia next month, he would be favored, probably by a pretty wide margin. However, Pacquiao is past prime. People/odds makers don’t care how past it he is. He’s Manny Pacquiao. Pacquiao is an ATG, HOF’er, has better wins, and will retire as being tons better than DSG. But then DSG KO’’s him, catches him off guard in an exchange. Pacquiao goes out cold. Pacquiao announced his retirement from the sport after the fight. Literally no boxing fan on Earth would end up caring about that outcome. And no, Pacquiao being favored didn’t mean he was still a good opponent. It just would mean that people thought so lowly of DSG and so highly of Pacquiao, that they didn’t think that DSG could beat even a way past prime version of Pacquiao. But look at that, DSG proved everyone wrong in this fantasy fight. He actually was able to beat the past prime HOF’er that would have wiped the floor with him as far back as 5-10 years ago. Round of applause for DSG for beating a Pacquiao who was a shell of his former self.