Wladimir Klitschko and the skill conundrum - wider debate/discussion

Wlad is a guy who is consistently criticised by many for having a very limited skillset, or being unskilled and relying on the most basic of punch combinations. This to a large degree is unwarranted criticism (as the basic 123 seems to be all that is needed in the heavyweight division these days), BUT the main discussion here is whether we can call someone unskilled if a fighter chooses consciously to use a specific set of punches - for discussions sake let's say this selection is a small variety such as what Wlad employs - jab, straight right, left hook. Wlad in his early career was clearly more of a variety puncher and was utilizing the entire range of punches. In theory, if we were watching him at the time, we would be raving about this new massive heavyweight with skills and power. That has diminished over time into even ridicule of the current Wlad. HOWEVER - as the current Wlad and his STYLE and GAMEPLAN rather than skillset, is a by-product of Manny Steward's tutelage and instruction, how does it make him unskilled? It is clear Klitschko has the full array of punches - and technically i'd say Wlad is actually quite away ahead of Vitali for example, but Vitali was ALLOWED to showcase a more varied and seemingly skillful style, because of his iron chin. Wlad doesn't have that unfortunately, so he has to avoid the types of punches or movements that put him in danger of getting his chin cracked. It makes sense for a fighter to hide his weaknesses in that way, while at the same time developing and honing a smaller set of 'tools' in a skillset, which can be a much more reliable arsenal to win a fight. For comparison's sake - take Wlad and Fury - a lot of Fury's fans say he is more skilled by far because he throws a lot of different punches. I personally disagree. I'd much rather have a perfect jab, left hook and right hand, rather than a wider array of punches but not up to the standard of an opponents smaller but much more developed arsenal. For this discussion I just used Wlad as he is a relevant guy to talk about right now, and a lot of criticism has been thrown at him at this particular time by a lot of Fury fans, and a lot of other fans over the years. But the wider debate also exists - is it fair to call a fighter unskilled who has to fight in a 'less-skilled' way (or in some people's eyes) in order to be successful, for example to cover up weaknesses or faults in the rest of their 'make-up' as a fighter? Discuss... :boxing:

Comments (19)

After Fury said that, I thought of this: http://image.slidesharecdn.com/15-kick-ass-bruce-lee-quotes-120622054321-phpapp01/95/15-kickass-bruce-lee-quotes-3-728.jpg?cb=1340539931 It is very true actually. That's essentially this whole argument - whether you agree with a statement or philosophy like that or not.

10y ago

PainfromUkraine

erm, heard of a certain Muhammad Ali? He dominated the division for half of the 1960s and did it just like that. Plus he didn't have the huge physical advantages in height and reach that Vitali enjoyed, so it was more difficult for him to use that style but he did it and did it far better than Vitali ever could. I odn't recall Vitali standing in the pocket as often as Ali or someone like Tyson, Holyfield or Frazier. Vitali did have decent reflexes though but then again, so does Wlad, it's just that Vitali can rely on his chin to take a punch, Wlad can't and he panics. Lol don't worry man I didn't forget Ali, just used Tyson as my example as he was more destructive IMO with KOs from combination punching. Ali had excellent combinations of course but not quite that overwhelming power like Tyson. In any case, I wasn't talking about the ATGs of the division, but more the average fighter at HW and a lot of champions who weren't as proficient combination punchers as Ali or Tyson.

10y ago

BoxOffice

10y ago

soul_survivor

I am going by the logic of certain posters here that if you don't consistently throw every punch in the book, you are unskilled and trash. Vitali by that logic was more skilled than Wlad because he often threw uppercuts, right hooks, could bang inside and even jabbed to the body a lot more than Wlad. That is one interesting thing actually - such a tall guy like Vitali had no real need to chop down at the body of smaller guys, but sometimes did anyway. Anyway, a lot of Vitali's skill lay in the fact he was able to judge distance and rely on reflexes as a form of defense. I can't recall another heavyweight who fought with his hands low all the time and had as much success as Vitali. erm, heard of a certain Muhammad Ali? He dominated the division for half of the 1960s and did it just like that. Plus he didn't have the huge physical advantages in height and reach that Vitali enjoyed, so it was more difficult for him to use that style but he did it and did it far better than Vitali ever could. I odn't recall Vitali standing in the pocket as often as Ali or someone like Tyson, Holyfield or Frazier. Vitali did have decent reflexes though but then again, so does Wlad, it's just that Vitali can rely on his chin to take a punch, Wlad can't and he panics.

10y ago

Foreign_Soil

Excessive clinching is illegal, but points are only ever taken away when the fight is nearly over, which has no impact on the tactic. I agree that hug victims could do more to prevent it, but that doesn't change the fact that Wlad gets away with hugging simply due to his size, not skill.

10y ago

Banderivets

Wlad's defense used to be his offense and range. Once Steward taught him how to hold, his defense became his range plus holding, somewhat like Lewis, whom didn't have much of a defense either. I remember Vitali not agreeing with Steward's choice of teaching Wlad to hold, saying it wasn't necessary, or something. He's right... Wlad's relied on the holding and it's taken away his offense. Wlads defensive is what his opponents ALLOW it to be...I used to hate on him for the holding, but the bottom line is that his opponents are just as willing to hug it out with him because usually they eat a shot just before the clinch happens. All this talk about Wlad clinching is being all his fault is just annoying. THERE ARE WAYS to get out of a clinch if you really want to. Just look at Lomachenko, get an arm loose and throw a looping overhand shot....or is Wlad terminator, with a grip so strong that you can't even attempt to get out of the clinch? Fight your way out of a clinch, WLAD WOULD GET POINTS deducted if his opponents made a REAL effort to brake the clinch (because at this point its holding) but they don't. They just embrace his hugs and wait for the refs to break them up. David Haye tried it a few times then he gave up. So they dont have the strength and skill to fight him on the inside, they get peppered by shots all day at distance, so all they have left to do is hug it out till the bell rings. Last few fights Wlad even made it a point to just put out his arms when the other guy was hugging him to show that "I'm not holding" but I guess that's still Wlad clinching right? Typical Wlad opponent scenario "I weave myself in, and do nothing, Wlad steps forward.....oh well I guess we can hug it out......rinse and repeat" they do nothing once they get inside.

10y ago

PainfromUkraine

As far as i see he rarely counters, has no inside game and doesnt punch in combination. His defence is almost entirely based on control of distance (which i give credit for) and excessive illegal holding. The skills he does have have been drilled to perfection by now and coupled with his size hes a formidable opponent, but if we are talking pure skills then he is definitely well behind other heavyweights in history. The lack of good opponents available has meant the skillset he has is more than enough Fair points - however, to address some of those points: in terms of countering, he never really needs to or is in a position to, because he is more often than not the aggressor as the opponents are often too scared to go on the front foot, thus not leaving any opportunity for counter. Which heavyweights really do punch in combinations of many punches though? Very few in history have been very proficient at it CONSISTENTLY and DESTRUCTIVELY- Tyson being the main standout. I do agree that Wlad would look a lot better if he employed more combos, but if one punch more often than not does the business - what can you do? I agree past champions have had more varied skillsets and gameplans, and have employed that for the duration of their careers, but the compelling argument is whether someone like Wlad who masters three punches can potentially be more effective with that smaller arsenal than another great that for example can do everything very well or excellently, but not be as 'masterful' as Wlad might be with just the three main weapons he uses.

10y ago

Y0NN

I want to like Wladimir, but his fans almost ruin it. I feel you, i want to dislike him but his detractors make me root for him. :bounce:

10y ago

No_Tomorrow

Wlad definitely has skills. It is his "die-hard" supporters that over estimate it and exaggerate it. Wladimir mentally is a very tough man and is extremely dedicated. However, the quality of his opponents haven't been the highest caliber and he is allowed to get away with excessive clinching to the point that it makes you wonder how much money these referees are getting paid under the table to change their performance based around Wladimir's game. I want to like Wladimir, but his fans almost ruin it. These same fans probably do not have the same level in opinion for : Omar Andres Narvaez or Orlando Canizales

10y ago

Foreign_Soil

i noticed how you didn't mention any defensive skills because wlad doens't have any. his defensive skill is clinching which is an illegal tactic. before he developed this illegal tactic with steward he was hitting the canvas over and over. anyone who has to cheat to win isn't a very skilled fighter in the traditional sense. skilled at cheating sure i will agree. Wlad's defense used to be his offense and range. Once Steward taught him how to hold, his defense became his range plus holding, somewhat like Lewis, whom didn't have much of a defense either. I remember Vitali not agreeing with Steward's choice of teaching Wlad to hold, saying it wasn't necessary, or something. He's right... Wlad's relied on the holding and it's taken away his offense.

10y ago

Foreign_Soil

I'm not sure who in their right mind calls Wlad or Vitali "unskilled" but the reality of the situation is this, both brothers have a very limited skill set. I'm not sure where or when and against whom Vitali showed a more varied skill set than Wlad, as you alluded to in your post. Vitali just happened to have a more unorthodox, less text book stance because he could drop his hands and not worry about his chin crumbling under the pressure. Vitali in my opinion often looked uncoordinated and uncomfortable, he was slower than Wlad and his punches weren't as text book but he did have more power and wasn't afraid of a bit of a fight. Wlad has better footwork and throws more "correct" punches but is limited by his chin and his inability to throw more than a 3 punch combination, not simply because he might get hit back but also because he isn't that effective at throwing other punches. He has added a decent left hook in the last couple years and is trying to add the uppercut but he will never be a fluid puncher. None of this takes away from both guys and their achievements, two of the very best heavyweights ever, top 10 or 20 in most people's estimations. Their huge advantages in size and reach and maximising those advantages have helped both men build a storied career. Vitali was clearly more skilled than Wlad, including his unorthodox approach or not. Vitali could fight going forwards or backwards and his KO's came from being able to land at will, since he wasn't a huge puncher. Wlad simply was more coordinated and athletic, but he doesn't have near the boxing brain of Vitali to fight on the fly.

10y ago

daggum

10y ago

Tom_Cruise

How can we truly say as a fact Wlad has a very limited skill set when he simply now has a style that is not requiring him to fully use all his skills (which we witnessed he DOES possess if he chooses to fully use it)? Are we in general too expectant of heavyweights to be as skilled as fighters in lower divisions? What could Wlad change or add to his gameplan now to make him look more skillful? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you BTW, just continuing the discussion. As far as i see he rarely counters, has no inside game and doesnt punch in combination. His defence is almost entirely based on control of distance (which i give credit for) and excessive illegal holding. The skills he does have have been drilled to perfection by now and coupled with his size hes a formidable opponent, but if we are talking pure skills then he is definitely well behind other heavyweights in history. The lack of good opponents available has meant the skillset he has is more than enough

10y ago

PainfromUkraine

He has a limited skillset which, mixed with his physical attributes, ring generalmanship and sub par opponents, has led to him being the dominant heavyweight on the planet. How can we truly say as a fact Wlad has a very limited skill set when he simply now has a style that is not requiring him to fully use all his skills (which we witnessed he DOES possess if he chooses to fully use it)? Are we in general too expectant of heavyweights to be as skilled as fighters in lower divisions? What could Wlad change or add to his gameplan now to make him look more skillful? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you BTW, just continuing the discussion.

10y ago

Tom_Cruise

He has a limited skillset which, mixed with his physical attributes, ring generalmanship and sub par opponents, has led to him being the dominant heavyweight on the planet.

10y ago

PainfromUkraine

I'm not sure who in their right mind calls Wlad or Vitali "unskilled" but the reality of the situation is this, both brothers have a very limited skill set. I'm not sure where or when and against whom Vitali showed a more varied skill set than Wlad, as you alluded to in your post. Vitali just happened to have a more unorthodox, less text book stance because he could drop his hands and not worry about his chin crumbling under the pressure. Vitali in my opinion often looked uncoordinated and uncomfortable, he was slower than Wlad and his punches weren't as text book but he did have more power and wasn't afraid of a bit of a fight. Wlad has better footwork and throws more "correct" punches but is limited by his chin and his inability to throw more than a 3 punch combination, not simply because he might get hit back but also because he isn't that effective at throwing other punches. He has added a decent left hook in the last couple years and is trying to add the uppercut but he will never be a fluid puncher. None of this takes away from both guys and their achievements, two of the very best heavyweights ever, top 10 or 20 in most people's estimations. Their huge advantages in size and reach and maximising those advantages have helped both men build a storied career. I am going by the logic of certain posters here that if you don't consistently throw every punch in the book, you are unskilled and trash. Vitali by that logic was more skilled than Wlad because he often threw uppercuts, right hooks, could bang inside and even jabbed to the body a lot more than Wlad. That is one interesting thing actually - such a tall guy like Vitali had no real need to chop down at the body of smaller guys, but sometimes did anyway. Anyway, a lot of Vitali's skill lay in the fact he was able to judge distance and rely on reflexes as a form of defense. I can't recall another heavyweight who fought with his hands low all the time and had as much success as Vitali.

10y ago

Banderivets

I'm not sure who in their right mind calls Wlad or Vitali "unskilled" but the reality of the situation is this, both brothers have a very limited skill set Sorry but what? Is "skilled" the new "aflectic"? What is the definition of skilled? Who in their right mind would ever say that Wlad has a "limited skill set" unless you mean something else. Skill is defined as "competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity", now which one of those is Wlad missing? His jab is excellence, his right hand is excellence, he knocks out guys with a great left hook. His strategy is usually excellent. Or do you mean that he utilizes a limited number of punches? That does not make him any less skilled as he wins fights and wins convincingly. Why would Wlad throw uppercuts against shorter opposition? Why would Wlad throw uppercuts if he doesn't fight inside? Because essentially this is the only punch that he is missing, he has everything else. We all know he can throw just about anything offensively, watch his earlier fights. He was no Lomachenko but he was throwing combos in his early days that make the likes of Wilder look like toughman bar brawlers.

10y ago

Weltschmerz

Good thread. The answer is nobody should call Vladimir unskilled. Also, his chin is underrated. Vlad was never knocked out cold, he had two obscure fights against opponents who should never have defeated him, and he probably did the foolish mistake of underestimating an opponent with Sanders. As I said in another thread, Vlad has perfected his current style (courtesy of Steward) - very few fighters in history would be a threat to the prime Vlad we have witnessed during an impressive (+)decade up until now. Many thought Haye could dethrone him with his speed, aggressiveness and power, but surprisingly, Vlad was as fast as Haye and showed superior footwork, impressive lightness/swiftness, accuracy etc. for a 245 lbs athlete.

10y ago

soul_survivor

10y ago