Who has the better shoulder roll, James Toney or Floyd Mayweather Jr?

Your on a roll in this thread. First with the nebulous characterizations of fights Toney "arguably" lost...whatever that means. I mean when you list six fights to follow the point has no meaning. If you were to say focus on a fight and compare it to a fight Mayweather "arguably" lost it would make more sense. Then this...Well Dan I like you but....this nonsense about getting hit...Shoulder roll techniques do involve a lot of deflection techniques. Toney does use it, at times to deflect power off a shot that connects with him. his heavyweight fights are examples of that. he is getting hit by guys a lot bigger than him and let me tell you! its not no David Price flush to the jaw, know what i mean? Yes most of those shots are deflected. They connect but not with enough force to do damage. Toney's genius is not only in his ideal division, it is how he could fight in most any division and use his skills to win. Mayweather got a few gifts, all fighters do. Even with a great chin if Toney was getting hit flush he would not have been able and you know that. the fact of the matter is he deflected power by tucking the chin, rolling the hips, and putting weight on the back foot which is what the shoulder roll is for. We won't even talk about the Nunn fight. Why are you and others struggling with the term "arguably lost"? Which part of "arguably lost" do you not understand? Tiberi, Sosa, Johnson, McCallum. Can you or can you not argue that he lost those fights? Thazdi and Montel Griffin he actually did lose. Did he or did he not get hit consistently whilst using the shoulder roll in every one of those fights? To an extent where he barely won any of them and could easily have lost. Surely it's basic common sense that his shoulder roll isn't as effective if he's struggling to be effective with it against these calibur of opponents. (Not including McCallum and Griffin)

mccallum is one thing, but tiberi...that wasnt supposed to happen. with that side, i think toney got better with his rolling and inside fighting as he got older, if only because of necessity. toney was never the lightest fighter on his feet but he could move if he had to as he got heavier though, he had no choice but to consistently stay on the inside. and it became a huge part of his strength. not to say floyd didnt have his off fights deffensively because he did, but never to the degree of toney. but then again James toney has always been more offensive minded whereas floyd morphed into a more defesnive minded fighter as his career went on. my money is on floyd but i have no issue with anyone saying toney.

Andre Berto. He used it with both of his eyes shut against Guerrero

Hard to say, they use the shoulder very differently. Two totally different styles, saying one gets hit more than the other is just "boxer fan" talk. You know styles make a huge difference on how much they get hit. Toneys fight against RJJ reminds me as to why FLoyd would most likely loose to someone like RJJ, weight being equal. RJJ laid out the blueprint to beating that style, forcing Toney to be overly agressive. He got out pointed from the outside, so he had to make the fight, fighting out of his style, leaving Toney to countering on opportunities that have already left. I see a fight with FLoyd going the same way. RJJ is just too gifted. He has Lights out, and The Alien on his resume.

No dude. Because Floyd doesn't solely depend on his shoulder roll. He has other means of defense. So to use losses against either fighter is stupid. And for the record, I could give two sh*ts about whose shoulder roll was better. Toney was a beauty to watch. Mayweather... not so much. But he's good at what he does so its whatever. So why are u even posting in the thread? This is why u are a **** poster. U criticize ppl with your surface level knowledge and act like u are somehow a paragon for what boxing fans should be. Either have legit discussion about the topic or shut up. No1 cares for your corny wise cracks. U aren't that good. and btw when u say toney was a beauty to watch as if mayweather didnt look just as brilliant if not moreso in the past, u further show your lack of boxing knowledge past the last 5-10 years. go watch fights and be an actual fan.

All this thread shows is how ignorant most people are. Most people here seem not to have watched both of these fighters. Mayweather is the greater fighter, but that doesn't automatically make his shoulder roll better. Their shoulder rolls aren't even used in the same way. Toney uses his much more offensively and therefore gets hit a lot more. Mayweather uses his offensively too but not quite in the same way. Personally I rank Toney's better when it comes to using it offensively and Mayweather's otherwise. Wouldn't you say that what you are describing is the difference in how much each guy sets? i just wrote quite a bit on this earlier in the thread, in the hopes someone would offer some feedback....more than saying most people are ignoramuises! To me when Toney sets, it makes it so he sacrifices his jab and temporarily his ability to step. What he gains is a vista view of the attack, and what he is able to do is put his weight back and counter. Toney often pushes foward with this set of movements, hence what i think you are characterising as "offensive" and you make sense. Mayweather is more subtle with the movements when he is offensive, and he is generally not as offensive from the roll as toney. mayweather uses these movements defensively , often against the ropes as an interlude before he steps laterally away. he does so because again, this position gives a person time to react, it naturally creates more space beyween you and your opponent.

Right but surely getting hit at such a consistent level while using the shoulder roll that you get a gift against Dave Tiberi and Merqui Sosa it might mean something. That's not including the fact that the same happened against Reggie Johnson and of course losng to Griffin and Drake Thazdi. His shoulder roll was landed on regularly and consistently in all of those fights. Your on a roll in this thread. First with the nebulous characterizations of fights Toney "arguably" lost...whatever that means. I mean when you list six fights to follow the point has no meaning. If you were to say focus on a fight and compare it to a fight Mayweather "arguably" lost it would make more sense. Then this...Well Dan I like you but....this nonsense about getting hit...Shoulder roll techniques do involve a lot of deflection techniques. Toney does use it, at times to deflect power off a shot that connects with him. his heavyweight fights are examples of that. he is getting hit by guys a lot bigger than him and let me tell you! its not no David Price flush to the jaw, know what i mean? Yes most of those shots are deflected. They connect but not with enough force to do damage. Toney's genius is not only in his ideal division, it is how he could fight in most any division and use his skills to win. Mayweather got a few gifts, all fighters do. Even with a great chin if Toney was getting hit flush he would not have been able and you know that. the fact of the matter is he deflected power by tucking the chin, rolling the hips, and putting weight on the back foot which is what the shoulder roll is for. We won't even talk about the Nunn fight.

Idk about who's better but I could watch fat Toney operate in the pocket all day. The fatter he got the more visible his skills became it seemed like. Yes! So true man...I love the Jirov fight.

All this thread shows is how ignorant most people are. Most people here seem not to have watched both of these fighters. Mayweather is the greater fighter, but that doesn't automatically make his shoulder roll better. Their shoulder rolls aren't even used in the same way. Toney uses his much more offensively and therefore gets hit a lot more. Mayweather uses his offensively too but not quite in the same way. Personally I rank Toney's better when it comes to using it offensively and Mayweather's otherwise.

This is not about who's the better fighter but rather who possesses a better shoulder roll. Please feel free to state your opiniom but no need to degrade any of the two extremely good fighters.

No dude. Because Floyd doesn't solely depend on his shoulder roll. He has other means of defense. So to use losses against either fighter is stupid. And for the record, I could give two sh*ts about whose shoulder roll was better. Toney was a beauty to watch. Mayweather... not so much. But he's good at what he does so its whatever. It doesn't change the fact that Toney's shoulder roll was penetrated realivetly easily by Tiberi, Sosa, Thazdi etc.

Doesn't losng and struggling suggest that it's not effective? "This is why I don't debate with fanboys" Take a look in the mirror mate :lol1: f*cking hell do you want an award for level of irony? No dude. Because Floyd doesn't solely depend on his shoulder roll. He has other means of defense. So to use losses against either fighter is stupid. And for the record, I could give two sh*ts about whose shoulder roll was better. Toney was a beauty to watch. Mayweather... not so much. But he's good at what he does so its whatever.

James Toney was pretty damn gifted and athletic if you ask me. In his prime that is. And like I just said, I never said Mayweather had no issues with his defense but on the same token he didn't lose and arguably lose to sub par fighters. I do give you that... But much of Toney career was in a place he never Belonged in the first place. I also give you that fact Toney was athletically gifted but only at super middleweight, when Toney started moving up and fighting at wieghts he should have never been in; Toney lost much of his Athletic gifts (Toney is no Mayweather or Jones Jr. in the aspect of Moving up and his gifts going with him). Toney relied on his shoulder roll more, which allowed him to perfect it with what he has but it often doesn't play out for him with his lack of workrate. If Toney had relied less of Denfense, winning the last 30 sec of a fight and fought the whole fight... Toneys career would have been much more decorated.

I'm a huge Mayweather fan, and I'm still not gonna claim Maywather never had issues with his defense. Not many, but some figured out the shoulder roll and Mayweather was left with his speed and athleticism; while his defense was damn near useless. Both I think were equally as good... While Matweather had the athletic gifts to not just dictate his game around Defense but Offense as well. Toney on the other hand, I never felt was athletically gifted as some of his opposition but for the most part dictated his fight game mostly on defense; hence his low work rate and decline in physical attributes for constantly moving up weight in the incorrect way. James Toney was pretty damn gifted and athletic if you ask me. In his prime that is. And like I just said, I never said Mayweather had no issues with his defense but on the same token he didn't lose and arguably lose to sub par fighters.

I'm a huge Mayweather fan, and I'm still not gonna claim Maywather never had issues with his defense. Not many, but some figured out the shoulder roll and Mayweather was left with his speed and athleticism; while his defense was damn near useless. Both I think were equally as good... While Matweather had the athletic gifts to not just dictate his game around Defense but Offense as well. Toney on the other hand, I never felt was athletically gifted as some of his opposition but for the most part dictated his fight game mostly on defense; hence his low work rate and decline in physical attributes for constantly moving up weight in the incorrect way.

And Floyd just cruised by Zab huh? If anything Zab also didn't have extreme difficulty with the shoulder roll and was connecting well with his left. Mayweather is great a the shoulder roll but to say nobody had success is down right Fan Boyish cr**! Well he beat Zab Judah clearly so yeah. I never said Nobody had success with Floyd but no one on the level of Dave Tiberi and Merqui Sosa had success let alone arguably beat him. Drake Thazdi actually did beat him. He wasn't given a gift in that one.

And Mayweathers worked against all his opposition, right? I don't think so. Maidana found success, Cotto as well, and Castillo. In fact you could go back and see Maywathers shoulder roll wasn't as polished as people want to believe. Are you really going to compare Castillo, Cotto and Maidana to Tiberi, Sosa, Thazdi and Reggie Johnson? And Mayweather clearly beat Cotto. Toney could easily have L'd against all of the above + more.

Who did James Toney beat who has hands as fast as Zab Judah or Manny Pacquaio? Infact, who with fast hands did James Toney look impressive against? And Floyd just cruised by Zab huh? If anything Zab also didn't have extreme difficulty with the shoulder roll and was connecting well with his left. Mayweather is great a the shoulder roll but to say nobody had success is down right Fan Boyish cr**!