Do you believe any of the 9/11 conspiracy theories?

[TheJoker]

Alleged Hijacker's Flight Training: http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...light_training



As we see here, the hijackers were far from being extremely religious fundamentalists preparing for a suicide mission. Drinking alchohol and using drugs doesnt ensure you 72 virgins in heaven. In the case of Atta, he was attending Huffman aviation of all flight schools in Florida. Huffman's owners Hilliard, and Dekkers, have both been known to have CIA ties. It is incredibly dubious for Atta to be attending the same flight school that was also reported to have been responsible for a plane that was busted in an Orlando Airport for having 30lbs of heroin.


There is also belief that the drug operation that was originally in mena arkansas was later moved to Huffman Aviation. pretty fishy. I'm leaning more towards Atta being a drug runner than I do him being a suicidal religious fundamentalist.

In the case of Hanjour, it was clear he couldnt fly at all. There is no way in hell he pulled off the maneuver to hit the pentagon.

More circumstantial evidence that doesn't directly address the evidence at the scene or the events in question. Again, what evidence do you have? Something along the lines of "This is a warhead from a missile, how did it get on the scene?"

[Panopticon]

Able Danger: http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...ams=ableDanger

October 1999: CIA Does Not Share Information with Able Danger Program

November 4, 1999: CIA Rejects Proposal for Center to Share Data on Terrorist Threats

December 1999: Able Danger Immediately Determines Al-Qaeda Has ‘Surprising Presence in US’

January-February 2000: Secret Military Unit Identifies Al-Qaeda ‘Brooklyn’ Cell; Mohamed Atta Is Member

September 2000: Military Lawyers Prevent Able Danger From Sharing Information about Atta and Others with FBI

Late September 2000: Able Danger Data Collection Begins Again; Mohamed Atta Supposedly Identified Again

March-April 2000: Able Danger Data Confiscated by Federal Agents

May-June 2000: Army Officer Told to Destroy Able Danger Documents

Maj. Eric Kleinsmith, chief of intelligence for the Land Information Warfare Activity (LIWA) unit, is ordered to destroy data and documents related to a military intelligence program set up to gather information about al-Qaeda. The program, called Able Danger, has identified Mohamed Atta and three other future hijackers as potential threats (see January-February 2000). According to Kleinsmith, by April 2000 it has collected “an immense amount of data for analysis that allowed us to map al-Qaeda as a worldwide threat with a surprisingly significant presence within the United States.”(see January-February 2000) [Fox News, 9/21/2005; New York Times, 9/22/2005] The data is being collected on behalf of Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Lambert, the J3 at US Special Operations Command, who is said to be extremely upset when he learns that the data had been destroyed without his knowledge or consent. [US Congress. Senate. Committee on Judiciary, 9/21/2005] Around this time, a separate LIWA effort showing links between prominent US citizens and the Chinese military has been causing controversy, and apparently this data faces destruction as well (see April 2000). The data and documents have to be destroyed in accordance with Army regulations prohibiting the retention of data about US persons for longer than 90 days, unless it falls under one of several restrictive categories. However, during a Senate Judiciary Committee public hearing in September 2005, a Defense Department representative admits that Mohamed Atta was not considered a US person. The representative also acknowledges that regulations would have probably allowed the Able Danger information to be shared with law enforcement agencies before its destruction. Asked why this was not done, he responds, “I can’t tell you.” [CNET News, 9/21/2005] The order to destroy the data and documents is given to Kleinsmith by Army Intelligence and Security Command General Counsel Tony Gentry, who jokingly tells him, “Remember to delete the data—or you’ll go to jail.” [Government Executive, 9/21/2005] The quantity of information destroyed is later described as “2.5 terabytes,” about as much as one-fourth of all the printed materials in the Library of Congress. [Associated Press, 9/16/2005] Other records associated with the unit are allegedly destroyed in March 2001 and spring 2004

Shortly Before September 25, 2001: Atta Reportedly Identified on Pre-9/11 Chart by Able Danger Team Members

Spring 2004: DIA Destroys Copies of Able Danger Documents

August 9, 2005: New York Times Reveals Able Danger Unit that Identified Four 9/11 Hijackers Before Attacks

August 22-September 1, 2005: More Individuals Come Forward to Confirm Able Danger Allegations

November 17, 2005: Former FBI Director Says Able Danger Could Have Stopped 9/11 Attacks

November 30, 2005: Congressman Calls Able Danger ‘Bigger Cover-up than Watergate’

February 14, 2006: Mohamed Atta’s Name Reportedly Appears 13 Times in Pre-9/11 Government Databases

Able Danger IDENTIFIED at least 4 of the hijackers before 9/11. The data mining efforts were obstucted and ignored from various other agencies including the CIA.

Anthony Shaffer reported that over a terobite of information had to be destroyed. This included charts that showed pictures of Mohammad Atta on them.


Ok.

So far we have clear evidence that the CIA had been engaging in drug smuggling operations with the ISI and AQ in the 80s and 90s. Then we know that 2 of the hijackers attended a flight school in Florida being accused of harboring a CIA front operation.

In Addition, the data mining efforts of Able Danger identified AQ operatives and was eventually shut down, had data destroyed, and Able Danger whistleblower Anthony Shaefer was gagged and punished for speaking out.

19 radical islamists lead by Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan hijacked 4 airplanes with boxcutters and no distress calls from the pilots, and flew the airplanes into 75% of their targets with military percision. Every level from airport security, Intelligence Agencies, the FAA, civilian goverment, ect. failed to see any of this coming. It was a complete surprise attack.

^Sounds like complete bull**** more and more.

[Panopticon]

More circumstantial evidence that doesn't directly address the evidence at the scene or the events in question. Again, what evidence do you have? Something along the lines of "This is a warhead from a missile, how did it get on the scene?"

We can get to explaining the scene of the crime once I get to it. The circumstantial evidence I have posted becomes more clear once we further this exercise.

[TheJoker]

Able Danger: http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...ams=ableDanger




Able Danger IDENTIFIED at least 4 of the hijackers before 9/11. The data mining efforts were obstucted and ignored from various other agencies including the CIA.

Anthony Shaffer reported that over a terobite of information had to be destroyed. This included charts that showed pictures of Mohammad Atta on them.


Ok.

So far we have clear evidence that the CIA had been engaging in drug smuggling operations with the ISI and AQ in the 80s and 90s. Then we know that 2 of the hijackers attended a flight school in Florida being accused of harboring a CIA front operation.

In Addition, the data mining efforts of Able Danger identified AQ operatives and was eventually shut down, had data destroyed, and Able Danger whistleblower Anthony Shaefer was gagged and punished for speaking out.



^Sounds like complete bull**** more and more.

Last time... what physical evidence do you have that goes against the official story? You post circumstantial timelines quite well but what about trying to post evidence?

[Panopticon]

Military Exercises Up to 9/11: http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...itaryExercises

1981-1992: Cheney and Rumsfeld Practice Secret Continuity of Government Plan, Later Activated on 9/11

(1984-2004): Richard Clarke Participates in Secret Continuity of Government Exercises

1992-2000: Secret Continuity of Government Exercises Prepare for Terrorist Threat

(1995-2001): Training Exercises Conducted Are Based around Aircraft Hijackings

Between 1999 and September 11, 2001: NORAD Practices Live-Fly Mock Shootdown of a Poison-Filled Jet

Between September 1999 and September 10, 2001: NORAD Exercises Simulate Plane Crashes into US Buildings; One of Them Is the World Trade Center

2000-2001: ‘Planes as Weapons’ and ‘Simulated Attacks’ Part of Security Planning for Major Events in the US

October 24-26, 2000: Military Holds Exercise Rehearsing Response to a Plane Crash at the Pentagon

May 7-24, 2001: Military Exercise Predicts War on Terror

June 1-2, 2001: Military Conducts Exercises Based on Scenario in which Cruise Missiles Are Launched against US


July 2001: NORAD Plans a Mock Simultaneous Hijacking Threat From Inside the US

Early August 2001: Mass Casualty Exercise at the Pentagon Includes a Plane Hitting the Building

Late August-September 8, 2001: Most Washington National Guard Pilots Are Away at Nevada Exercise

September 9-11, 2001: NORAD Begins Northern Vigilance Military Operation

Before September 11, 2001: US Government Prepares for Hijackings, Some of Them Involving Multiple Planes

September 11, 2001: The 9/11 Attack: 3,000 Die in New York City and Washington, D.C.

Well would you look at that. I couldnt make it any more glaringly obvious than that. That link also neglects to mention that at least 4 wargames were underway on 9/11. This prompted the East Coast to be left unguarded by fighters and it prompted NORAD officials to be confused by the attacks because they saw inputs(or blips) on their radar that showed at least 23 different hijacked airplanes.

Also, the CIA was running an excercise in which an airplane was flown into its headquarters, and WTC.

Cant make this stuff up. It accumulates to a much bigger picture than to the one we are told to believe.

[TheJoker]

Military Exercises Up to 9/11: http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...itaryExercises



Well would you look at that. I couldnt make it any more glaringly obvious than that. That link also neglects to mention that at least 4 wargames were underway on 9/11. This prompted the East Coast to be left unguarded by fighters and it prompted NORAD officials to be confused by the attacks because they saw inputs(or blips) on their radar that showed at least 23 different hijacked airplanes.

Also, the CIA was running an excercise in which an airplane was flown into its headquarters, and WTC.

Cant make this stuff up. It accumulates to a much bigger picture than to the one we are told to believe.

You still haven't posted evidence as it relates to the scene of the crime, witnesses, physical evidence, etc...

Again, what you are posting is circumstantial evidence, it supports the idea that the government could have had something to do with it but does nothing to prove anything...

[Panopticon]

Last time... what physical evidence do you have that goes against the official story? You post circumstantial timelines quite well but what about trying to post evidence?

It is evidence. It all goes against the recieved official story that we were caught blindsided by 19 hijackers that completely snuck under everyone's nose. The documentation shows that levels of government were far from misinformed, or even uninformed. They simply didnt care to be informed. This level of neglegance demands some reform in certain agencies.


We created AQ. We supported their drug laundering. Cheney and Rumsfeld prepared continuity of govt plans as early as 1992 as a direct response to a terrorist attack. Take that in consideration with Able Danger, and our Military Excercises involving airplane hijackings, and it's clear we couldnt have been any more prepared than that.

[Panopticon]

You still haven't posted evidence as it relates to the scene of the crime, witnesses, physical evidence, etc...

Again, what you are posting is circumstantial evidence, it supports the idea that the government could have had something to do with it but does nothing to prove anything...

It supports that the government DID have something to do with it. You are overlooking it because its hard to acknowledge.

[TheJoker]

It supports that the government DID have something to do with it. You are overlooking it because its hard to acknowledge.

No, I'm overlooking it because it is circumstantial and doesn't prove anything. You could come up with the idea that the government had scenarios like this as training exercises for example. You could make the connection that the Bush's knew the Bin Laden's because of the oil business. That doesn't prove government involvement or collusion before the fact. You're connecting circumstantial evidence to create a scenario which you are comfortable with. Any evidence to the contrary (photos of plane parts, official documents released via the Freedom of Information Act, etc) are dismissed. In your scenario you invalidate the official story because of a constructed story based on circumstance.

That is where the problem lies. You need to provide concrete evidence (like I said, missile parts, photos of a b-52 bombing the **** out of the pentagon, etc...) in order to support your scenario and it's been 400+ posts so far, if you have evidence I don't know what you're doing with so many responses and you haven't provided anything yet...

[Panopticon]

World Trade Center http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...d_trade_center

(8:46 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Janitor Hears Explosion from WTC Basement

8:46 a.m. September 11, 2001: First WTC Attack Recorded on Video, but Not Broadcast Until Evening

(8:47 a.m.-9:50 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Engineer Finds Major Damage in Basement and Lobby of North Tower

8:48 a.m. September 11, 2001: Office of Emergency Management Preparing for Bioterrorism Exercise; Opens Its Command Center

(Between 8:50 a.m. and 9:03 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Janitor Hears Explosions and Other Strange Noises in North Tower

(8:57 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Fire Department Advice to Evacuate WTC Tower Fails to Reach People Inside

(9:00 a.m.) September 11, 2001: WTC South Tower Announcement: OK to Return to Offices

(Shortly Before 9:03 a.m.) September 11, 2001: New York City Workers Reportedly Find Emergency Command Center Empty before It Is Supposedly Evacuated

(9:05 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Fire Chief Worried WTC Could Collapse; Other Firefighters Unconcerned

(Between 9:15 a.m. and 12:00 p.m.) September 11, 2001: New York City Workers Hear Explosions in WTC 7

(9:20 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Fire Chief Concerned about Possible Explosives in the WTC

9:47 a.m. September 11, 2001: Internal Collapse at WTC South Tower Reported

(9:50 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Molten Metal Pours from South Tower

Shortly Before 9:59 a.m. September 11, 2001: Ground Shakes Prior to South Tower Collapse

(Before 9:59 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Gold Transported Through WTC Basement

Shortly Before 9:59 a.m. September 11, 2001: Some Witnesses See Ground-Level Explosion Just Before WTC 2 Collapses

(Before 9:59 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Giuliani Apparently Told WTC Towers Will Collapse When Fire Chiefs Think Otherwise

9:59 a.m. September 11, 2001: Some Witnesses Hear Explosions as South Tower Collapses

9:59 a.m. September 11, 2001: Some Witnesses Think South Tower Collapse Resembles a Controlled Demolition

Shortly After 9:59 a.m. September 11, 2001: Fire Department Expert on Building Collapses Thinks Bombs Caused South Tower to Come Down

10:07 a.m. September 11, 2001: Police Helicopter Reports Top of North Tower ‘Glowing Red’; Says Collapse is ‘Inevitable’

Shortly Before 10:28 a.m. September 11, 2001: Ground Shakes Prior to North Tower Collapse

10:28 a.m. September 11, 2001: Some Witnesses Think North Tower Collapses Like a Controlled Demolition

10:28 a.m. September 11, 2001: Reporter Sees Ground-Level Explosion When North Tower Collapses

(Shortly Before 12:10 p.m.) September 11, 2001: City Housing Authority Worker Finds WTC 7 Lobby in Ruins, Possibly Steps over Dead Bodies

(4:15 p.m.-4:27 p.m.) September 11, 2001: CNN and Others Report WTC 7 May Have Collapsed

4:54 p.m.-5:10 p.m. September 11, 2001: BBC Reports WTC 7 Collapse Before It Happens

(5:20 p.m.) September 11, 2001: WTC Building 7 Collapses; Cause Remains Unclear