Did Liston take a dive against Ali?

[STEELHEAD]

I've thought about this for a hot minute, what are your thoughts? Liston at one point wanted to be a peoples champ, but soon found out that his past would never be overlooked by the public. He arrived home to Philly after winning the title to find that nobody was there to greet him, he was stunned. After that point, he didn't care what the fans thought, he became disdainful of the press and the fans who wouldn't give him a second chance in life. Going into the tank wouldn't be much of a concession for him.

Aside from that, he had to break up camp for the rematch because Ali suffered a hernia. At that age, which may have been his late 30s, it is hard to get back into shape for a second consecutive training camp, plus you only stay at your emotional peak for a short time before you get dull. It's like warming up for an hour, after a while you get tired mentally.

Liston also wouldn't address claims that the Nation of Islam had visited him to make assurances that Liston would try to do something competitive.

My thoughts are that Ali landed squarely and Liston went down, but he stayed down because he was crushed and discouraged by flashbacks of the first fight. He was humiliated and didn't want to get up and go through with the pain anymore. Liston wasn't out, he just didn't want to be embarrassed in a fight he didn't think he could win. It wasn't unlike when Tyson went down against Holyfield in their first fight, it was totally humiliating.

Judge for yourself...

i'll tell you a tale asian sensation. me and my dad was over at my grandpas and watched the clay/liston fight.before the fight started i remember my grandpa telling my dad that liston was into junk and was going to take a dive and he was betting on clay. at that time, i was like 12-13 yrs old, didnt know what those terms mean.
my sicilian grandpa made his fortune in the late thirties early forties being a bookie ,lets say, working for some associates from chicago in hollywood.years later when i questioned my dad, who was a cop, said that my grandpa wasnt connected but was an affiliate.when i asked him about what granpa said about liston decades earlier my dad tried to backhand me and told me to forget about it.
nothing can be substaintiated but i know what i think.

[Pantera2000]

i'll tell you a tale asian sensation. me and my dad was over at my grandpas and watched the clay/liston fight.before the fight started i remember my grandpa telling my dad that liston was into junk and was going to take a dive and he was betting on clay. at that time, i was like 12-13 yrs old, didnt know what those terms mean.
my sicilian grandpa made his fortune in the late thirties early forties being a bookie ,lets say, working for some associates from chicago in hollywood.years later when i questioned my dad, who was a cop, said that my grandpa wasnt connected but was an affiliate.when i asked him about what granpa said about liston decades earlier my dad tried to backhand me and told me to forget about it.
nothing can be substaintiated but i know what i think.

Sounds like your family history would make a good movie! Mobster gandpa, Cop Father, and naive little you!

[STEELHEAD]

Sounds like your family history would make a good movie! Mobster gandpa, Cop Father, and naive little you!

si...but noway.
no fooling ,if you look at the par for the coarse this is not uncommon in the evulution from gangster to cop back to rowdyboy, to cop.

this use to happen in the olden days to not only sicilians but to irish and ***s. its a common finamaninom. it most recently happening with blacks ,puerto ricans,mexicans.etc. just look at fey t.v. like law and order.

no fooling i layed it out like it was. years inbetween have made it softer. i could have said more incriminating things having to do with other gangsters(the real kind).but its hearsay.plus there are FREQUENTS of my restorante that are still alive that act cagee when liston comes up. i don't know. just keep buying my food.or i'll maim you....just fkg kidding.

[AJ53]

the title of the thread still asks did liston take a dive!
and with the illegal count and liston getting up to fight im still wondering if he could have taken a dive?

i know sonny had a dubious past in fights with alledged substances on the gloves againgst ali and zora folley; but...
it all seems a little to much to be planned by a man who was such a wrecking ball in the ring.
liston had pride anger and dynamite in his fists so i still wonder if the fight was maybe even beyond his control.
when all is said and done he would never ever admit to taking a dive(even to his grave) the way la motta did,
and it didn't do any good for his career other than end his chances in title fights.
from what i know i personally dont think he did take a dive but i could understand why others would think he did.
either way r.i.p. charles sonny liston maybe not a good man but a damn good fighter.


well spotted about nat fleischer tho asian sensation i should have noticed that before.

[TheEvilSaint]

i heard liston say he just didnt want to fight ali anymore. so he went down from a light punch and didnt make much of an effort to get back up. basically, he just quit in the first round.

[blockhead]

he took a dive in both fights

[STEELHEAD]

i know it might be abstract to you younguns (mo's & miha's) but youve got to follow the money.there is more involved here than the boxer.thats how life is.in this situation liston had a chance at making more money (paying back dope depbts) loosing than winning.its brutal. i most certainly could be wrong . but years later this is what i have to say.

[GunStar]

Liston knew he can't beat Ali, so yes he took a dive.

[STEELHEAD]

there's more to it you idiot. ...money. liston may have bet againssst fimself my granpa says.which is disturbing.but fits in. nothing doumented.

[GunStar]

there's more to it you idiot. ...money. liston may have bet againssst fimself my granpa says.which is disturbing.but fits in. nothing doumented.

I don't believe your drunkin old grandpa!