Did Liston take a dive against Ali?

[Crazy Dude]

How could he take a dive when he wasn’t counted out? He was on his feet fighting when the referee stopped the fight.

[The Noose]

the title of the thread still asks did liston take a dive!
and with the illegal count and liston getting up to fight im still wondering if he could have taken a dive?

i know sonny had a dubious past in fights with alledged substances on the gloves againgst ali and zora folley; but...
it all seems a little to much to be planned by a man who was such a wrecking ball in the ring.
liston had pride anger and dynamite in his fists so i still wonder if the fight was maybe even beyond his control.
when all is said and done he would never ever admit to taking a dive(even to his grave) the way la motta did,
and it didn't do any good for his career other than end his chances in title fights.
from what i know i personally dont think he did take a dive but i could understand why others would think he did.
either way r.i.p. charles sonny liston maybe not a good man but a damn good fighter.


well spotted about nat fleischer tho asian sensation i should have noticed that before.

Good post. Kinda sums things up.

i know it might be abstract to you younguns (mo's & miha's) but youve got to follow the money.there is more involved here than the boxer.thats how life is.in this situation liston had a chance at making more money (paying back dope depbts) loosing than winning.its brutal. i most certainly could be wrong . but years later this is what i have to say.

That seems about right. With all the mob rumors none of us know wat really was going down.

Liston didnt look like he wanted to get up, and im sure it wasnt just because he thought Ali could beat him.

[Run]

If Liston wouldn't have shot dope, he'd have had better legs. He might have been the scariest heavyweight of all time if he wasn't strung out constantly.



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[xAUGUSTUSx]

I've thought about this for a hot minute, what are your thoughts? Liston at one point wanted to be a peoples champ, but soon found out that his past would never be overlooked by the public. He arrived home to Philly after winning the title to find that nobody was there to greet him, he was stunned. After that point, he didn't care what the fans thought, he became disdainful of the press and the fans who wouldn't give him a second chance in life. Going into the tank wouldn't be much of a concession for him.

Aside from that, he had to break up camp for the rematch because Ali suffered a hernia. At that age, which may have been his late 30s, it is hard to get back into shape for a second consecutive training camp, plus you only stay at your emotional peak for a short time before you get dull. It's like warming up for an hour, after a while you get tired mentally.

Liston also wouldn't address claims that the Nation of Islam had visited him to make assurances that Liston would try to do something competitive.

My thoughts are that Ali landed squarely and Liston went down, but he stayed down because he was crushed and discouraged by flashbacks of the first fight. He was humiliated and didn't want to get up and go through with the pain anymore. Liston wasn't out, he just didn't want to be embarrassed in a fight he didn't think he could win. It wasn't unlike when Tyson went down against Holyfield in their first fight, it was totally humiliating.

Judge for yourself...

I think he just knew he could'nt win so he just went down and stayed down. I think if he was really trying to win that fight he would've never went down from that shot.

[hollister]

Well, they obvious part is that he clearly wasn't trying to win the fight, he was known for being able to take a shot, and Ali never really had big power.
The question here is WHY was he not trying to win the fight. I think the mob was involved like many others here, but that's just my 2 cents.

[Mr. Ryan]

i'll tell you a tale asian sensation. me and my dad was over at my grandpas and watched the clay/liston fight.before the fight started i remember my grandpa telling my dad that liston was into junk and was going to take a dive and he was betting on clay. at that time, i was like 12-13 yrs old, didnt know what those terms mean.
my sicilian grandpa made his fortune in the late thirties early forties being a bookie ,lets say, working for some associates from chicago in hollywood.years later when i questioned my dad, who was a cop, said that my grandpa wasnt connected but was an affiliate.when i asked him about what granpa said about liston decades earlier my dad tried to backhand me and told me to forget about it.
nothing can be substaintiated but i know what i think.

I have heard many stories of Liston being into drugs, but many have also said that Liston was dead afraid of needles. There are so many inconsistencies and moving parts to the story than can be properly assessed.

[Mr. Ryan]

Well, did he?

[BuddyChacon]

Well, did he?

Why would he have gotten up after the long count to continue fighting if he did? It would make no sense. He was scared Ali would be assasinated in the ring though.

[Mr. Ryan]

Why would he have gotten up after the long count to continue fighting if he did? It would make no sense. He was scared Ali would be assasinated in the ring though.

Liston got up and did nothing but take unnecessary shots while not doing a damn thing. I think Liston wanted to stay down but it was getting ridiculous because the count was ****ed up. Liston didn't want to get up, he did so because he had had enough of being on the floor.

[BuddyChacon]

Liston got up and did nothing but take unnecessary shots while not doing a damn thing. I think Liston wanted to stay down but it was getting ridiculous because the count was ****ed up. Liston didn't want to get up, he did so because he had had enough of being on the floor.

You right that would have looked terribly su****ious. Better question did Johnson take a dive against Willard. I say yes, blocking the sun from his eyes with his arms lol, but why did he wait so long into the fight to do it. Maybe he just said **** it.