Sloppiano should be removed from the heavyweight hall of fame

[Abe Attell]

They were!

But Marciano was smaller which makes his victories against them more impressive.

Marciano never fought any "Good" big heavyweights: LaStarza, Charles, Moore, and Walcott were all under 200lbs.

I have no problem calling Rocky one of the greatest Cruiserweights or even Light-heavyweights in history

I am not saying he couldn't put on weight like Michael Moorer did, but no so sure how much exactly he could put on before it hurts his stamina

[Abe Attell]

Maybe Marciano is rated higher than he should be by some people. But there is definately racism flowing in both directions here, and you are failing to recognize that. Marciano is unquestionably a top ten alltime heavyweight, even though he is not the best ever, to say he should be pulled out of the hall of fame is ridiculous and I think that there has to be some racism to say something that extreme.

Anybody remember that quote by Teddy Atlas on Marciano's Sports-Century?
It went something like:
"Marciano can be overrated and underrated at the same time: he can be overrated because of his undefeated record, and underrated because ????????

was it who and when he fought certain people???



I do think he gets a lot of hype from "White" fans, especially Italians, since there are so few...

[phallus]

Marciano never fought any "Good" big heavyweights: LaStarza, Charles, Moore, and Walcott were all under 200lbs.

I have no problem calling Rocky one of the greatest Cruiserweights or even Light-heavyweights in history

Walcott weighed 210, i don't know what Ezzard Charles weighed but he beat Joe Louis ( so did Marciano), Moore is a top 3 all time lt. hw

heavyweights were smaller back in the day, less hormones in the food they ate, or something. emanuel auagustus is small, too, that doesn't take away from his ability as a fighter. a small but skilled roy jones, beat johnny ruiz

[Abe Attell]

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rockiron.html

Rock Against Iron


Marciano versus Tyson. Who Would Win?


By: Monte D. Cox








Introduction:
Rocky Marciano, the “Brockton Blockbuster”, reined as heavyweight champion from 1952-1956 retiring with an impressive record of 49-0. He is the only unbeaten, untied champion in boxing history. He made 6 successful defenses of the heavyweight title before retiring as champion.

“Iron” Mike Tyson was the youngest heavyweight champion in history at age 20. He cut a swath through the heavyweight division from 1986 to 1990 and was one of the most feared heavyweight champions ever. He made 9 successful title defenses before losing in an upset to Buster Douglas. He continued his career with limited success thereafter, although he was never quite the same after his loss to Douglas and a prison incarceration in the early-mid 1990's. Tyson's 23 first round knockouts are third in division history to Jack Dempsey (25) and Earnie Shavers (24).

This is a match up between two of the heavyweight divisions greatest knockout punchers. Who would win if Rocky Marciano met Mike Tyson in their considered primes?




The Tale of The Tape


..................................Tale Of The Tape...........................
..........................Rocky Marciano ................Mike Tyson
Height................5-10 1/2...................... 5-10½
Weight................185......................... ...216
Reach..................68......................... .....71
Chest/Norm...........39................................4 3
Chest/Exp..............42............................... .45
Waist.....................32...................... .........34
Biceps.....................14..................... .......16
Neck........................16 3/4...........................19 3/4
Wrist...........................7 1/4..................8
Calf.............................14 3/4.........................18
Ankle.............................10.............. .....11
Thigh............................22............... ..........27
Fist...............................11 1/2.........................13
Forearm............................12............. ............14




The Analysis
The first thing one notices when looking at the tale of the tape in a match up of Rock versus Iron is the size difference. While they are about the same height Tyson clearly has an overall advantage in size. He is bigger and stronger on paper. While size is not the most important issue, Tyson, weighing in at 216 (his weight for the Spinks fight) would have a 31-pound weight and strength advantage over Marciano.

Some argue that the former cruiserweight Evander Holyfield beat Tyson and therefore so could Marciano. However, Holyfield had a tall frame and was able to add more muscular strength. When Evander fought Tyson he weighed 215 pounds and was in great physical shape at that weight. Marciano, like Holyfield, was a conditioning horse but he fought at his best weight which was around 185 pounds.

Evander Holyfield scored a victory over Tyson in one of Mike's legacy fights, a loss for Tyson. But in a comparison, Holyfield and Marciano have almost nothing in common except conditioning, and physical and mental toughness. This is an important ingredient one must have in order to be able to turn the fight on Tyson if one can survive the initial onslaught. In terms of style however, one can easily see that Marciano did not fight at all like Holyfield. Evander was primarily a boxer and a counter-puncher with a good jab. Marciano was a crouching slugger who came in low and threw a lot of punches, often wildly until his opponent's wilted. The only thing Marciano and Holyfield have in common is a strong chin and a will to win that is greater than that of Tyson. Marciano had much better stamina and better one punch hitting power than Holyfield, but Rocky did not possess Holyfield's speed, punching accuracy, quick multi-punch combinations or countering ability.

Mike Tyson is very similar to Jack Dempsey in his style of fighting. He was a bob and weaver, he threw his right to the body just like Dempsey, he was explosive in the early rounds, and had the same type of killer instinct. Dempsey was more durable and fought better when hurt.

I am reminded of the following story from the from the Dec 1988 Ring Magazine, "Tyson and Dempsey: Is History Repeating Itself?" Writer John Reeves wrote about an incident in a bar while viewing the Tyson-Pinklon Thomas fight. Reeves had said to an old pug watching the fight, "A lot like Marciano huh?"

"Not really" the old man replied, "I wouldn't say so. He fights more like Dempsey." He stared at the young fan for a moment then turned his attention back to the screen. "But a guy your age wouldn't know too much about Dempsey", he said. There was almost a hint of sympathy in his retort."

There are a lot of similarities between Tyson and Dempsey. Reeves noted, "Like Tyson, Dempsey fought out of a crouch, constantly moving in a bobbing and weaving fashion so taller men would be forced to punch down at a mobile target. Both learned to pressure their way inside and unleash furious volleys of head and body punches. Both ended a lot of fights early with devastating power."

Looking at Marciano and Tyson one sees that both are aggressive swarming style fighters. Marciano threw alot of punches, but was wild and lacked punching acuracy. He was an "anywhere hitter," he didn't aim his punches, but anywhere he hit it hurt. Tyson was a two-fisted dynamo with fantastic hand speed, punching accuracy, great combination and counter-punching ability. They would meet at ring center and there would be few backward steps. The fireworks would start immediately.


The Outcome
Consider the opinion of veteran boxing writer and analyst Dan Daniel from the May 1956 Ring Magazine concerning a potential Marciano-Dempsey fight, "Dempsey would have stopped Rocky because Marciano would have taken too long to hurt the Mauler. Rocco usually warms up to his task slowly, and usually doesn't get to that point until about the eighth round. Once he has worn down his man, Rocky hurts plenty. Dempsey was no feeler-outer. The bell rang, and he went right to work, no dilly-dallying. He gave everything he had all the way."

Marciano was much like Joe Frazier in this regard, although he was capable of scoring the occasional early rounds knockout most of his fights against quality opposition, like those against Don ****ell and Archie Moore, were fights where he took a few rounds to warm up. Dempsey tried to rip your head off in the opening session. Tyson was the same way. Tyson's speed allows him to get there first. Razor Ruddock after his fight with Tyson said, "I was suprised by his speed." Virtually everyone Tyson fought said they were amazed by his hand speed, and of course his power is among the best of all heavyweights of history.

Marciano is a great fighter, more determined and tougher than Mike Tyson, but Tyson is a bad match up for him stylistically. Tyson can be beaten if his will is tested, but all things considered, Tyson's speed, quick start, superior hand speed, great power and punching accuracy will be too much for Rocky to survive the early rounds attack of Tyson. Rocky’s slower start and vulnerability against sharp punchers like Walcott and Moore, neither of whom had anything close to Tyson's power at heavyweight proves his vulnerability in the early rounds.

This hypothesis is confirmed by watching the films. Recently I viewed some films of Marciano and Tyson on the same evening. One cannot help but notice how wild Marciano can be with his punches. He comes in low and covers up in his crouch but he is off balance and exposed when he misses, which is often. The young Tyson on film looks so much better. He slips, and counters, dodges and counters, dips and counters and moves his head very quickly. He comes in tight and throws nice short punches. It is just this type of fighter who would really make Marciano pay for his amateurish mistakes. Get wild against Tyson and one winds up looking at the ceiling. Marciano has to survive Tyson's big counters. If Rocky can make it past the first few rounds he will win. But can he?

Marciano never faced a strong heavyweight puncher who weighed over 200 pounds except a faded, old Joe Louis in his last fight. The two strongest and sharpest hitters that Marciano faced Jersy Joe Walcott and light-heavyweight champion Archie Moore both put Rocky on the deck. Walcott and Moore weighed well under 200 pounds. Tyson, bigger, faster, stronger, and with more explosive accurate punches busts up the rock like an iron hammer smashing up gravel. Tyson's quick start ends things before Marciano has a chance to warm up and test Tyson's will. Iron Mike over Rocky by early rounds knockout.

[phallus]

marciano beat better quality opposition than tyson ever did, even an old joe louis ( the greatest boxer - puncher of all time ) is better than anyone tyson ever beat.

in a 1950's issue of Ring magazine, jack dempsey said " Marciano punches harder with the right hand than any modern day heavyweight. the right scrambled jersey joe's brains at chicago "
dempsey also said, that he didn't think he could beat marciano if they met in the ring in their primes

[Abe Attell]

Walcott weighed 210, i don't know what Ezzard Charles weighed but he beat Joe Louis ( so did Marciano), Moore is a top 3 all time lt. hw

heavyweights were smaller back in the day, less hormones in the food they ate, or something. emanuel auagustus is small, too, that doesn't take away from his ability as a fighter. a small but skilled roy jones, beat johnny ruiz

Where are you getting your numbers?

Walcott was never over 200lbs and Ezzard Charles was more known as a great Light-heavyweight than a heavyweight...

Don't even bring up Joe Louis because it is blasphemy to say that was the same fighter.


Ruiz is not that great, and Jones is a freak of nature...Ruiz is lucky Tua became an unmotivated fat boy or he would get knocked out in about 10 seconds again.
Roy Jones was a freak of nature...we have not seen that many in the history of boxing that were on his level?

Walcott, Moore, and Charles were also knocked out before so it is not like Maricano was facing *******

[Abe Attell]

marciano beat better quality opposition than tyson ever did, even an old joe louis ( the greatest boxer - puncher of all time ) is better than anyone tyson ever beat.

in a 1950's issue of Ring magazine, jack dempsey said " Marciano punches harder with the right hand than any modern day heavyweight. the right scrambled jersey joe's brains at chicago "
dempsey also said, that he didn't think he could beat marciano if they met in the ring in their primes

In Tyson's prime, Ali said he couldn't beat Tyson...Ali would say the same again when he saw Lennox...it is called being humble...this happens when you retire and are old...your testosterone is shot and you become more like a women.

Go watch the Walcott (I) fight, Charles and LaStarza fought Rocky twice and took some great shots without going down in their first meetings.

[Abe Attell]

marciano beat better quality opposition than tyson ever did, even an old joe louis ( the greatest boxer - puncher of all time ) is better than anyone tyson ever beat.

LOL

We all saw what happened when Tyson went up against one of the greatest light-heavyweights in history, Michael Spinks, it ended in the first...Spinks was undefeated and had never been knocked down until he ran into a 220lb wall.


If you think that Joe Louis was even near the same person that was so admired to this country than you are ****ing insane...there is a reason many shed tears when he was knocked out, it was like taking advantage of your Grandfather.

[bsrizpac]

I have never ever been a Rocky fan. At all. I think he's more overrated than any heavyweight champ in history.

That said wtf? He fought at heavyweight. He belongs in the HW HOF. End of ****** dumb thread.

[Mike Tyson Jr.]

you cant even call him
the best cruserwieght
cuz that honor belongs to holyfield