Comments Thread For: Canelo Extends His Lead: BoxingScene Competition Index December 2020 Update

[Fire4231]

Not sure what you mean. If belt holders faced each other their competition index would increase in Cliff's system.

No broski, that is placing the cart before the horse... They would have to face each other to realize any of those credibility gains through the “competition index.”

If Cliff’s index says they haven’t fought anybody, it keeps Index Champions from feeling any pressure to fight guys not on the index whether belted, mandatory or not.

Bro... Cliff is intelligent unlike some of the moe-onz on here. Let Cliff’s relay his perspective. After all he designed the index.

[crold1]

No broski, that is placing the cart before the horse... They would have to face each other to realize any of those credibility gains through the “competition index.”

If Cliff’s index says they haven’t fought anybody, it keeps Index Champions from feeling any pressure to fight guys not on the index whether belted, mandatory or not.

Bro... Cliff is intelligent unlike some of the moe-onz on here. Let Cliff’s relay his perspective. After all he designed the index.

You're giving way too much credit to this index. I doubt Alvarez is reading it saying "Charlo only finishes in the top 30 of roughly 200 guys rated across 17 weight classes by Ring or TBRB. I don't have to fight him." Alvarez is saying he wants unification at super middle, that's where he has declared he is competing, and so that means credit would be highest for, in this order, Benavidez (who will get a WBC mandatory after losing belt on the scales), Plant, and Saunders.

He'd get more credit for fighting a Charlo coming up in weight than he would for Saunders at super middle based on where Saunders is rated by TBRB and Ring and where Charlo is rated. Here's how. A win over Saunders (rated 6 by TBRB and 5 by Ring) would be worth 5.5 points. Charlo is rated #2 by both at 160. A win over a #2 is worth 9 pts but if Charlo moved up I would multiply nine by 160 divided by 168 (the difference in weight) making a win over Mall worth 8.57 pts.

If Charlo beat Alvarez, he would get credit for the move up (168 divided by 160) multiplied by where Alvarez is rated (Champ by Ring/#1 by TBRB = 10.5 points). It's why Mall immediately jumped with his last win.

It rewards fighting the better fighter's in one's class (or classes). The most credit GGG or Mall would get at middle is from fighting each other, they're now the consensus top two in that class by almost everyone, and it's why I tweeted the other day that them fighting anyone else is whack IMO. That's THE fight right now at 160 with Alvarez gone and the next best would be either against Andrade.

I'm not saying either list of rankings is perfect but when two of the four major sanctioning bodies say Jaime Munguia is the number one contender at middleweight, and they don't rate each other's titlists, it's a reasonable gauge. It's why the top three are where they are. They've fought the highest volume of contenders from those lists and won. I use those because I trust the one I'm involved with and it, like Ring, rates a maximum of 11 fighters in any class with the possibility of a champion.

I think the point intended is what you want to see: better fights against the better opposition more consistently and recognition of it.

[Thuglife Nelo]

You're giving way too much credit to this index. I doubt Alvarez is reading it saying "Charlo only finishes in the top 30 of roughly 200 guys rated across 17 weight classes by Ring or TBRB. I don't have to fight him." Alvarez is saying he wants unification at super middle, that's where he has declared he is competing, and so that means credit would be highest for, in this order, Benavidez (who will get a WBC mandatory after losing belt on the scales), Plant, and Saunders.

He'd get more credit for fighting a Charlo coming up in weight than he would for Saunders at super middle based on where Saunders is rated by TBRB and Ring and where Charlo is rated. Here's how. A win over Saunders (rated 6 by TBRB and 5 by Ring) would be worth 5.5 points. Charlo is rated #2 by both at 160. A win over a #2 is worth 9 pts but if Charlo moved up I would multiply nine by 160 divided by 168 (the difference in weight) making a win over Mall worth 8.57 pts.

If Charlo beat Alvarez, he would get credit for the move up (168 divided by 160) multiplied by where Alvarez is rated (Champ by Ring/#1 by TBRB = 10.5 points). It's why Mall immediately jumped with his last win.

It rewards fighting the better fighter's in one's class (or classes). The most credit GGG or Mall would get at middle is from fighting each other, they're now the consensus top two in that class by almost everyone, and it's why I tweeted the other day that them fighting anyone else is whack IMO. That's THE fight right now at 160 with Alvarez gone and the next best would be either against Andrade.

I'm not saying either list of rankings is perfect but when two of the four major sanctioning bodies say Jaime Munguia is the number one contender at middleweight, and they don't rate each other's titlists, it's a reasonable gauge. It's why the top three are where they are. They've fought the highest volume of contenders from those lists and won. I use those because I trust the one I'm involved with and it, like Ring, rates a maximum of 11 fighters in any class with the possibility of a champion.

I think the point intended is what you want to see: better fights against the better opposition more consistently and recognition of it.

Damn Cliff went Moneyball style! Gangsta grizzle!

[Fire4231]

You're giving way too much credit to this index. I doubt Alvarez is reading it saying "Charlo only finishes in the top 30 of roughly 200 guys rated across 17 weight classes by Ring or TBRB.

I don't have to fight him." Alvarez is saying he wants unification at super middle, that's where he has declared he is competing, and so that means credit would be highest for, in this order, Benavidez (who will get a WBC mandatory after losing belt on the scales), Plant, and Saunders.

He'd get more credit for fighting a Charlo coming up in weight than he would for Saunders at super middle based on where Saunders is rated by TBRB and Ring and where Charlo is rated. Here's how. A win over Saunders (rated 6 by TBRB and 5 by Ring) would be worth 5.5 points. Charlo is rated #2 by both at 160. A win over a #2 is worth 9 pts but if Charlo moved up I would multiply nine by 160 divided by 168 (the difference in weight) making a win over Mall worth 8.57 pts.

If Charlo beat Alvarez, he would get credit for the move up (168 divided by 160) multiplied by where Alvarez is rated (Champ by Ring/#1 by TBRB = 10.5 points). It's why Mall immediately jumped with his last win.

It rewards fighting the better fighter's in one's class (or classes). The most credit GGG or Mall would get at middle is from fighting each other, they're now the consensus top two in that class by almost everyone, and it's why I tweeted the other day that them fighting anyone else is whack IMO. That's THE fight right now at 160 with Alvarez gone and the next best would be either against Andrade.

I'm not saying either list of rankings is perfect but when two of the four major sanctioning bodies say Jaime Munguia is the number one contender at middleweight, and they don't rate each other's titlists, it's a reasonable gauge. It's why the top three are where they are. They've fought the highest volume of contenders from those lists and won. I use those because I trust the one I'm involved with and it, like Ring, rates a maximum of 11 fighters in any class with the possibility of a champion.

I think the point intended is what you want to see: better fights against the better opposition more consistently and recognition of it.

[B]Cliff to be honest brother, I wasn’t worried about the math. I am more worried about the source of the data. The TBRB and Ring Magazine votes.

For example, Ring Magazine who as of recently shown an online bias for their employer of current GoldenBoy will caste a heavily weighted vote for Golden Boy. So Golden Boy’s bias is clearly represented in the ranking system.

I am also pretty sure Top Rank and ESPN is vested in the TBRB votes. Judging by the boxing stories we read. So Top Rank has some bias in the ranking system.

So how are you making certain PBC, Matchroom etc. are getting a fair shake in the voting process? All the math on the backend to calibrate is only as good as the vote equity on the front end. To be honest, nobody really trusts the established boxing media anymore. Too many waisted opportunities to tell the truth.

So would love to see a system that completely removes the bias from the mix. If they can’t stop showing bias writing articles or voting for the annual best why should we trust them to be fair and impartial voting behind the scenes? The rest of the jazzy number play is just shiny wrapper.

Again why not just put promoter pressure on the fights fans people want to see despite the promoter? That use to work in the past. That would always lead to more revenue generated for boxing and happier fans. What we need now is an algorithm to figure out what boxing writers make from promoters so the fans can match it and get media pressure on our side. What do you think?

[ShoulderRoll]

No broski, that is placing the cart before the horse... They would have to face each other to realize any of those credibility gains through the “competition index.”

If Cliff’s index says they haven’t fought anybody, it keeps Index Champions from feeling any pressure to fight guys not on the index whether belted, mandatory or not.

Bro... Cliff is intelligent unlike some of the moe-onz on here. Let Cliff’s relay his perspective. After all he designed the index.

Cliff just explained it to you.

Under this index Canelo would get more points for fighting Charlo than he would for fighting Billy Joe Saunders.

There's no bias there. It's just cold, hard numbers like I said.

You don't like the Ring or TBRB rankings? What better alternatives would you suggest?

[Fire4231]

Cliff just explained it to you.

Under this index Canelo would get more points for fighting Charlo than he would for fighting Billy Joe Saunders.

There's no bias there. It's just cold, hard numbers like I said.

You don't like the Ring or TBRB rankings? What better alternatives would you suggest?

ShoulderRoll - With all due respect I am talking to the Cliff. I know he has substance in him. Some of y’all are just blind riders. We have interacted enough to know how you roll.

Cliff walks the line of right and it’s observable in how his articles present themselves. Bro... If you can’t see the affiliations connected to Ring and the lack of some affiliations related to TBRB and Ring then you are biased. Has Rings content not changed since taking on promotional ownership? How do you control the bias when many of the TBRB are receiving access, exclusives and payments from specific promoters?

Just know this, all these fighter elections go against a simple business principal. If boxing wants to make optimized money consistently it needs to find it’s truth. The fans pay the bills. So any system that makes money based on what they want us to see will never make more money than the fights we actually want to see.

You guys keep telling us I should not want to watch Porsche vs Ferrari. What you want to see is Hyundai verses Dodge. No bro... bring back the Ferraris and Porsches.

Look here God bless him for trying to keep control but how much energy can Bob have to make great fights. Arum is close to 90 years old. Is this where boxing writers want to place all their eggs. Today Bob has to be dragged to make any big fight. He is so disconnected from Boxing’s present that Top Rank is getting further and further left behind. Bob’s apathy helped burn down HBO and ESPN will exit boxing on their current trajectory.

Boxingscene may want to get good with boxing’s future before it has no options left. The smear campaign ends with the emperors lame duck tyranny. Or... en****** like Boxingscene will be prime for disruption. Like the sites content but get back to objective.

Cliff is the editor. He has to know going down with the ship is not an option. This index with out an equitable voting pool will keep yielding results that are misaligned with the audience’s understanding and belief system. Good Day!!!