The GOAT HW - Joe Louis vs Muhammad Ali

[CubanGuyNYC]

I think Tyson's downfall wasn't so much any mental issues, but the fact he had to be uncivilized to stay who he was. I've always been of the opinion that when things get too good its hard to stay as into the hitting mfers in the head business. And I think Tyson was rolling in ***** & money & nice things & spending too much time enjoying himself & that took the edge off him. And I don't think he ever got it back. I don't think you can get that back once its gone. Even if you were dirt poor & make some money & return to being dirt poor that time when you weren't dirt poor has still ruined you. Or I should say it ruins A LOT of guys. I think Floyd is an example of a guy you could pay $10B a fight in his prime & he'd still stay dedicated to his craft. I think Manny is probably that type of guy. I think Ali was probably that type of guy. Canelo too. Any of these guys with some longevity who were among the best paid guys year in, year out are like that. But a lot of cats catch one too many big paydays & its over. I think Tyson was that guy. I think Joshua might be that guy. I think the first guy who beat Tyson was that type of guy & I suspect the first guy to beat Joshua will be that type of guy too. Idk thats my angle with Tyson's unfulfilled potential doe. I don't buy that Atlas bs where Tyson had 5 fights & lost them all.

Very interesting thoughts. Not sure I ever formed these ideas myself, with regards to Tyson. You’re right, in a savage sport, many — perhaps most — fighters need to feel hungry to stay on top. That goes for nearly every other endeavor in life. Tyson got fat, figuratively speaking, very quickly. He bought into his own aura of invincibility. Once he experienced real adversity, Mike crumbled. Then came the jail time, and he couldn’t recapture the magic. It was a brief but exciting time in heavyweight history.

[CubanGuyNYC]

i get what you mean.

if tyson was 100% on any given night he would probably beat any hw in history. including ali and louis.

but he was not capable of this. mentally.

tyson is boxing's greatest 'what if'.

And that’s probably part of the mythos. It happens with artists and entertainers who die young. It has a way of creating legend. In Tyson’s case, his career died young.

[Szef]

And that’s probably part of the mythos. It happens with artists and entertainers who die young. It has a way of creating legend. In Tyson’s case, his career died young.

well said.

louis or ali?

[Eff Pandas]

Very interesting thoughts. Not sure I ever formed these ideas myself, with regards to Tyson. You’re right, in a savage sport, many — perhaps most — fighters need to feel hungry to stay on top. That goes for nearly every other endeavor in life. Tyson got fat, figuratively speaking, very quickly. He bought into his own aura of invincibility. Once he experienced real adversity, Mike crumbled. Then came the jail time, and he couldn’t recapture the magic. It was a brief but exciting time in heavyweight history.

Man I think the magic was gone well before prison. I think the magic was gone before he lost. I think he was coasting for a fight or two before Buster took him out. I think he coasted most of his career.

But yea the world got too insane for Tyson I think. He was a kid who didn't get booty til he was 18 cuz he was balls deep in boxing. By 21 he's champion of the world. Pretty quickly after that he's postered up everywhere & gots a video game & marrying a popular actress & ****ing every girl that comes within 5 feet of him & he gots money on top of money even with King robbing him. How can one keep their sanity after all that. Its sorta surreal to think about how the world changed so quickly on him.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Greatest at what?

Losing his finances?


Losing his cognitive ability?


Padding his record with irrelevant fighters?


All I know is that the greatest Heavyweight ever is Tyson Fury. That's indisputable based on the footage.

[Toffee]

Man I think the magic was gone well before prison. I think the magic was gone before he lost. I think he was coasting for a fight or two before Buster took him out. I think he coasted most of his career.

But yea the world got too insane for Tyson I think. He was a kid who didn't get booty til he was 18 cuz he was balls deep in boxing. By 21 he's champion of the world. Pretty quickly after that he's postered up everywhere & gots a video game & marrying a popular actress & ****ing every girl that comes within 5 feet of him & he gots money on top of money even with King robbing him. How can one keep their sanity after all that. Its sorta surreal to think about how the world changed so quickly on him.

And people talk about his 'wild side'. I think, if anything, Mike was a bit too much of a normal guy. That kind of shift in life would break plenty.

If at 21 I was wealthy beyond belief, could **** anything around me, and every bloke was simultaneously scared of me and in awe of me... I reckon I'd be lucky to see my 22nd birthday.

Also puts into perspective just how special the best were. They dealt with it and excelled.

[CubanGuyNYC]

Man I think the magic was gone well before prison. I think the magic was gone before he lost. I think he was coasting for a fight or two before Buster took him out. I think he coasted most of his career.

But yea the world got too insane for Tyson I think. He was a kid who didn't get booty til he was 18 cuz he was balls deep in boxing. By 21 he's champion of the world. Pretty quickly after that he's postered up everywhere & gots a video game & marrying a popular actress & ****ing every girl that comes within 5 feet of him & he gots money on top of money even with King robbing him. How can one keep their sanity after all that. Its sorta surreal to think about how the world changed so quickly on him.

Just reading your synopsis of his life during that period is surreal. Lol Well encapsulated. Tyson and I are only a few months apart. I remember his time well. Looking back on it, it must’ve been one hell of a ride. No one can seriously fault the guy for imploding. It was just too much, too fast, for a kid from the ‘hood to handle. Who would’ve thought, all these years later, Mike would find a popularity of a different sort?

And, yeah, you’re right. The magic was already fading before Douglas. It was simply that the Douglas fight was the climax, where it all came crashing down.

[Szef]

Excuses....

[Eff Pandas]

the circumstances are irrelavant here. the end product is.


you are a boxing fan.you know your history. beetwen foreman and tyson, who was toughert? tyson had the aura. forema had the toughness.

come on man. you want to tell me tyson was tougher than foreman? or tougher to beat? come on man, you know the answer. tyson was soft.

Of course the story is relevant. Everything is relevant if we are discussing all this sh^t.

And idk what toughness gots to do with Tyson being the guy with more tools. Foreman had power no doubt, but thats all he had. I mean f#ck man this ain't that complicated. Go watch some young foreman or old foreman fights it don't even matter. Then go watch Tyson's first 30 odd fights. Look at the sh^t Tyson was doing in the ring.

And granted as we've gone on about Tyson did start phoning it in way too young, but Foreman never looked as good as young Tyson did.

[CubanGuyNYC]

well said.

louis or ali?

As I said in an earlier post, I think it’s splitting hairs at the highest levels, but I lean towards Louis. Now, I’m not saying Ali would lose in a head-to-head contest, but I slightly favor Louis in a question that figures many variables.

I don’t want to get involved in a debate about it, this sort of thing has been beaten to death around here, but much of my reasoning has to do with general athletic performance at different times in history. Most great modern athletes would be considered “better” than their historical counterparts. But if they were all born on the same day, with access to the same things, be it in 1900 or 2000, who would be considered better? It’s impossible to say. It’s all very subjective.