The GOAT HW - Joe Louis vs Muhammad Ali

[A.K]

Where is Lennox Lewis 🤔

[Eff Pandas]

Yes he did have a cheat code. And that's what i call GREATNESS.

This is what seperates regular fighters from great ones.

they have that x factor. in ali's case it was his speed, heart and ring iq.

I don't believe speed is an "x factor". Its speed. Some cats got it. And no one gots it at HW. So its some crazy advantage. It is what it is doe. It helped him rule his era. I just don't think that'd be enough vs a cat like Joe Louis is where I'm taking issue with his alleged x factor in speed.

honestly i rate ali that high because he beat george foreman.

Eh. I mean it was an impressive W & among his top W's, but if you call Tyson mentally weak wasn't Young Foreman also mentally weak? He was moved like Deontay Wilder for his first 30ish fights iirc. He did destroy some high level mfers once he got a bunch of manufactured W's, but just like Tyson crumbled when pressured Foreman crumbled too. Still a good win cuz everyone including damn near some cats on Ali's team was thinking he was getting merked that night, but I think people forget Foreman's full story from back then too. He LOOKED like a force of nature just like Tyson, but there was a scared mfer behind the curtain.

to me, personally, that george foreman was the most unbeatable fighter of all time. and i've seen sonny liston, floyd mayweather fight. that's just my personal opinion doe,

Disagree strongly. Foreman had a manufactured record & was the Deontay of his day for his first 2 & a half dozen fights or so iirc. He punched hard as f#ck, but thats where things ended with him. Tyson had ring IQ & speed & elusiveness AND power. Foreman was much more limited.

manny isn't considered the goat but he's one of the two greatest fighters of this era. him losing arguably 4 times to a guy who's a stylistic nightmare to him doesn't mean he's not one of the greatests' of era.

I'm not saying all that. I'm saying people don't throw Manny up as THE BEST welterweight like they'll throw out Ali as THE BEST heavyweight & a guy at the level of Norton had his number in his prime ffs. At least JMM is a high level almost equal of Manny. Two of Norton's top 5 W's might be over the actor from Raising Arizona who kidnaps the baby & the villian from Superman II.

this is the thing about tyson and roy. especially tyson.

there's a lot of 'if', 'would', 'could, surrouanding them.

tyson was a machine., but he crumbled under pression.

i don't care about this 'if he was on point' bs.

You don't gotta care about it.

I'm saying for me RJJ was the best fighter I ever saw when he was at his best. And Tyson was the best HW I ever saw when he was at his best. If anyone cares or disagrees with me thats what I saw & think.

that's not how the real world works.

The world don't "work" in All Time Great silliness either yet we talk about it. Who cares what works in the real world in a fantasy bs ass conversation from the jump like this is?

there was always a holyfield waiting to expose him.

tyson was a mental midget. with cus or not. it would always show when it mattered the most.

I think Tyson's downfall wasn't so much any mental issues, but the fact he had to be uncivilized to stay who he was. I've always been of the opinion that when things get too good its hard to stay as into the hitting mfers in the head business. And I think Tyson was rolling in ***** & money & nice things & spending too much time enjoying himself & that took the edge off him. And I don't think he ever got it back. I don't think you can get that back once its gone. Even if you were dirt poor & make some money & return to being dirt poor that time when you weren't dirt poor has still ruined you. Or I should say it ruins A LOT of guys. I think Floyd is an example of a guy you could pay $10B a fight in his prime & he'd still stay dedicated to his craft. I think Manny is probably that type of guy. I think Ali was probably that type of guy. Canelo too. Any of these guys with some longevity who were among the best paid guys year in, year out are like that. But a lot of cats catch one too many big paydays & its over. I think Tyson was that guy. I think Joshua might be that guy. I think the first guy who beat Tyson was that type of guy & I suspect the first guy to beat Joshua will be that type of guy too. Idk thats my angle with Tyson's unfulfilled potential doe. I don't buy that Atlas bs where Tyson had 5 fights & lost them all.

[Szef]

I don't believe speed is an "x factor". Its speed. Some cats got it. And no one gots it at HW. So its some crazy advantage. It is what it is doe. It helped him rule his era. I just don't think that'd be enough vs a cat like Joe Louis is where I'm taking issue with his alleged x factor in speed.



Eh. I mean it was an impressive W & among his top W's, but if you call Tyson mentally weak wasn't Young Foreman also mentally weak? He was moved like Deontay Wilder for his first 30ish fights iirc. He did destroy some high level mfers once he got a bunch of manufactured W's, but just like Tyson crumbled when pressured Foreman crumbled too. Still a good win cuz everyone including damn near some cats on Ali's team was thinking he was getting merked that night, but I think people forget Foreman's full story from back then too. He LOOKED like a force of nature just like Tyson, but there was a scared mfer behind the curtain.



Disagree strongly. Foreman had a manufactured record & was the Deontay of his day for his first 2 & a half dozen fights or so iirc. He punched hard as f#ck, but thats where things ended with him. Tyson had ring IQ & speed & elusiveness AND power. Foreman was much more limited.



I'm not saying all that. I'm saying people don't throw Manny up as THE BEST welterweight like they'll throw out Ali as THE BEST heavyweight & a guy at the level of Norton had his number in his prime ffs. At least JMM is a high level almost equal of Manny. Two of Norton's top 5 W's might be over the actor from Raising Arizona who kidnaps the baby & the villian from Superman II.



You don't gotta care about it.

I'm saying for me RJJ was the best fighter I ever saw when he was at his best. And Tyson was the best HW I ever saw when he was at his best. If anyone cares or disagrees with me thats what I saw & think.



The world don't "work" in All Time Great silliness either yet we talk about it. Who cares what works in the real world in a fantasy bs ass conversation from the jump like this is?



I think Tyson's downfall wasn't so much any mental issues, but the fact he had to be uncivilized to stay who he was. I've always been of the opinion that when things get too good its hard to stay as into the hitting mfers in the head business. And I think Tyson was rolling in ***** & money & nice things & spending too much time enjoying himself & that took the edge off him. And I don't think he ever got it back. I don't think you can get that back once its gone. Even if you were dirt poor & make some money & return to being dirt poor that time when you weren't dirt poor has still ruined you. Or I should say it ruins A LOT of guys. I think Floyd is an example of a guy you could pay $10B a fight in his prime & he'd still stay dedicated to his craft. I think Manny is probably that type of guy. I think Ali was probably that type of guy. Canelo too. Any of these guys with some longevity who were among the best paid guys year in, year out are like that. But a lot of cats catch one too many big paydays & its over. I think Tyson was that guy. I think Joshua might be that guy. I think the first guy who beat Tyson was that type of guy & I suspect the first guy to beat Joshua will be that type of guy too. Idk thats my angle with Tyson's unfulfilled potential doe. I don't buy that Atlas bs where Tyson had 5 fights & lost them all.

of course it's an x factor.

some dudes have it.

the other 99.9% of population don't.


tyson got ko'ed by kevin mcbride and ended his career afterwards. foreman went back and won the he title.

forman was the mike tyson mike tyson always wanted to be.


our world does.

right now you and me are having a conversation in our world. the boxing fan's world.

and in this world mike tyson is a a soft ass quitter.

i like mike but that is the truth.

he's not build for this..

[LetOutTheCage]

Joe Louis would get destroyed in Ali's era. Ali fought so many killers and won, it wouldn't even be close

[Eff Pandas]

But who did Louis beat that was on the level of Sonny Liston? Joe Frazier?

He beat more HOFers.

Losing to Norton or to Schmeling is a matter of styles and both avenged these at least on paper. Also Ali's losses all came when he was clearly past his prime after a pretty long layoff. These don't diminish a fighter's legacy, bottom line is he faced much greater adversity and came out on top.

Thing is Louis actually avenged his L. You could argue Ali never did. Plenty of people think Norton is 3-0 vs Ali & regardless how anyone scored it he was life & death with Norton in all 3 fights & you could easily have had Ali losing all 3 of those fights they were so competitive.

And if we are talking low level early L's. Ali shoulda had a KO or DQ (for Angelo Dundee's cheating) loss to Henry Cooper. And I scored the Doug Jones fight in a thread here & I had Ali losing that fight too & best case it was close ass fight vs a guy no one knows anything about I bet. Ali wasn't THAT great lets be mfing serious now. He had a great advantage with his speed & used that GREATLY.

Joe Louis was clearly undersized for the heavyweights of the 70s and he would get easily handled by any of the good ones let alone Ali, doesn't diminish his legacy at all though, but I don't agree with idea of Louis even being competitive with a guy like Ali. Just like Ali wouldn't have been competitive with someone like Lennox Lewis.

Louis & Ali were about 10ish lbs apart, 2 inches apart in height & 2 inches in reach. Ali wasn't Anthony Joshua big in comparison to Louis. And Ali didn't have much power & Louis did. And Louis had some ring IQ that could test Ali & keep him more honest. And his smaller size would be make Ali's natural speed advantage less of an advantage.

But now you are getting us into why H2H fights between guys born 20ish or more years apart is a problem. The time Louis was in & the time Ali was in were different times & there are different advantages & disadvantages to have been born in either timeline. And there would obviously be an advantage in boxing 20 years in the future & having the knowledge of many great fighters of the past then 20 years earlier & having the knowledge of fewer great fighters. Thats why this sh^t is such a scifi conversation.

[Eff Pandas]

tyson got ko'ed by kevin mcbride and ended his career afterwards. foreman went back and won the he title.

Foreman was outta the sport a decade to get his head right & confidence back. The guy legit had a panic attack after a fight. It wasn't no rumor bs like this Joshua stuff is.

Sure Foreman had more longevity, but it took him a lot of work to get him back in the sport & his story is more the story of two careers. Tyson made too much money to recover his caveman ways I feel like. If Foreman hadn't had money woes with his church or w/e he mighta not even come back to boxing.

forman was the mike tyson mike tyson always wanted to be.

LOL come on man. Look at Tyson in the 80's. Dude was destruction personified. Foreman was a slow thudding power puncher & thats it. Foreman woulda named one of his kids Becky to have had Tyson's skills. But no doubt Tyson's skills didn't matter cuz he lost his fire or motivation or maybe I'm wrong & he mentally shutdown like you're suggesting, but there is no argument Tyson had more tools in his toolbox.

he's not build for this..

I wouldn't go that far. I think you can be built for this for a shorter time doe sometimes & Tyson was one of those guys. It is what it is. Not everyone can be or wants to be a savage forever. Its probably better for ones health to get out early. I've been saying that forever & I think its true. I love all these young promising guys going for it in their first dozen or so fights these days. Hopefully they'll make their money & gtfo of the sport quicker too.

[RJJ-94-02=GOAT]

these two are widely considered as the two best heavies ever. but who is the best in your opinion?

It’s Ali.

Higher skill level and better resume.

[RJJ-94-02=GOAT]

First off I hate fantasy bs, but this Ali is "the greatest" sh^t drives me cray cray lol. Ali was damn near the Conor McGregor of his day minus the quitting. He talked & built controversy better than anyone in history except Jack Johnson (who's underrated among great HW fighters too). He was charismatic & great at making fans love or hate him. Louis was very regular guy-ish so never garnered quite that level of hype or love or hate with fans. Popularity breeds hype in accomplishments quite often.

But back to the point. Ali lost to Frazier in his prime. He lost to Ken Norton in his prime & he probably Canelo'd him in the other two fights & plenty of people think that or feel Norton could've easily gotten the nod in all 3 fights. And lets not bs, Ken Norton wasn't "tremendous". His whole rep is built on his fights with Ali. And he did appear to have Ali's number doe, but beyond Ali he didn't have a lot of success with too many other top guys. The fact his in the HOF lives & dies with the people who think he could've won all 3 fights with Ali & did actually get the nod in one of those fights. F#cking Norton was damn near the GGG of his day.

Ali is among the all time most overrated boxers. And Joe Louis might be among the most underrated great HW's of all time. More people seem to think Rocky was better than Louis cuz Rocky beat him when Louis was 73 years old. Almost Rocky's whole notable resume is built on beating old mfers ffs. He's overrated right with Ali.

The facts remain Louis was undefeated in his prime from age 23 to like 36. Granted he wasn't in a popular HW era like Ali, but he still beat more HOFers (8) than Ali (7). And all Louis' L's were to other HOFers. Ali lost to f#cking Leon Spinks & Trevor Berbick.

Ali was quick as f#ck so Louis would have to chase him down, but I think he wins rounds on effective aggression & probably catches up to him late & stops him or takes a decision.

Ali wasn’t in his prime against Frazier and Norton.

GTFOH...

[Szef]

Foreman was outta the sport a decade to get his head right & confidence back. The guy legit had a panic attack after a fight. It wasn't no rumor bs like this Joshua stuff is.

Sure Foreman had more longevity, but it took him a lot of work to get him back in the sport & his story is more the story of two careers. Tyson made too much money to recover his caveman ways I feel like. If Foreman hadn't had money woes with his church or w/e he mighta not even come back to boxing.



LOL come on man. Look at Tyson in the 80's. Dude was destruction personified. Foreman was a slow thudding power puncher & thats it. Foreman woulda named one of his kids Becky to have had Tyson's skills. But no doubt Tyson's skills didn't matter cuz he lost his fire or motivation or maybe I'm wrong & he mentally shutdown like you're suggesting, but there is no argument Tyson had more toolsfan. in his toolbox.



I wouldn't go that far. I think you can be built for this for a shorter time doe sometimes & Tyson was one of those guys. It is what it is. Not everyone can be or wants to be a savage forever. Its probably better for ones health to get out early. I've been saying that forever & I think its true. I love all these young promising guys going for it in their first dozen or so fights these days. Hopefully they'll make their money & gtfo of the sport quicker too.

the circumstances are irrelavant here. the end product is.


you are a boxing fan.you know your history. beetwen foreman and tyson, who was toughert? tyson had the aura. forema had the toughness.

come on man. you want to tell me tyson was tougher than foreman? or tougher to beat? come on man, you know the answer. tyson was soft.

[Szef]

Good post. I won’t get into a point-by-point; suffice it to say, I agree with some ideas and not with others. I think you have a valid argument as to why Ali is overrated. Nonetheless, I believe Ali deserves his reputation. Some boxing experts rate him not only as the greatest HW of all time, but the greatest boxer ever. That said, it might come as a surprise that I consider Louis possibly the greater heavyweight. It’s splitting hairs at this level, and one opinion is as good as the next.



I feel the same way about this. Tyson is way overrated by those who don’t know heavyweight history. But I’ve always said, on his best night, Mike Tyson was capable of beating any man that ever set foot inside a ring. He might be overrated, but that’s saying something.

i get what you mean.

if tyson was 100% on any given night he would probably beat any hw in history. including ali and louis.

but he was not capable of this. mentally.

tyson is boxing's greatest 'what if'.