The GOAT HW - Joe Louis vs Muhammad Ali

[Szef]

these two are widely considered as the two best heavies ever. but who is the best in your opinion?

[SkiPete]

Rocky Marciano.

[Dip_Slide]

Joe Louis was head and shoulders above almost everyone he faced and wasn't really tested as a champion except against Schmeling, that'sgreat an all, but Muhammad Ali actually faced tremendous opponents and he came out on top. No question about who the greater of the 2 is.

[Armchairhero]

Both get dropped by young Mike....

[Eff Pandas]

Joe Louis was head and shoulders above almost everyone he faced and wasn't really tested as a champion except against Schmeling, that'sgreat an all, but Muhammad Ali actually faced tremendous opponents and he came out on top. No question about who the greater of the 2 is.

First off I hate fantasy bs, but this Ali is "the greatest" sh^t drives me cray cray lol. Ali was damn near the Conor McGregor of his day minus the quitting. He talked & built controversy better than anyone in history except Jack Johnson (who's underrated among great HW fighters too). He was charismatic & great at making fans love or hate him. Louis was very regular guy-ish so never garnered quite that level of hype or love or hate with fans. Popularity breeds hype in accomplishments quite often.

But back to the point. Ali lost to Frazier in his prime. He lost to Ken Norton in his prime & he probably Canelo'd him in the other two fights & plenty of people think that or feel Norton could've easily gotten the nod in all 3 fights. And lets not bs, Ken Norton wasn't "tremendous". His whole rep is built on his fights with Ali. And he did appear to have Ali's number doe, but beyond Ali he didn't have a lot of success with too many other top guys. The fact his in the HOF lives & dies with the people who think he could've won all 3 fights with Ali & did actually get the nod in one of those fights. F#cking Norton was damn near the GGG of his day.

Ali is among the all time most overrated boxers. And Joe Louis might be among the most underrated great HW's of all time. More people seem to think Rocky was better than Louis cuz Rocky beat him when Louis was 73 years old. Almost Rocky's whole notable resume is built on beating old mfers ffs. He's overrated right with Ali.

The facts remain Louis was undefeated in his prime from age 23 to like 36. Granted he wasn't in a popular HW era like Ali, but he still beat more HOFers (8) than Ali (7). And all Louis' L's were to other HOFers. Ali lost to f#cking Leon Spinks & Trevor Berbick.

Ali was quick as f#ck so Louis would have to chase him down, but I think he wins rounds on effective aggression & probably catches up to him late & stops him or takes a decision.

[Szef]

First off I hate fantasy bs, but this Ali is "the greatest" sh^t drives me cray cray lol. Ali was damn near the Conor McGregor of his day minus the quitting. He talked & built controversy better than anyone in history except Jack Johnson (who's underrated among great HW fighters too). He was charismatic & great at making fans love or hate him. Louis was very regular guy-ish so never garnered quite that level of hype or love or hate with fans. Popularity breeds hype in accomplishments quite often.

But back to the point. Ali lost to Frazier in his prime. He lost to Ken Norton in his prime & he probably Canelo'd him in the other two fights & plenty of people think that or feel Norton could've easily gotten the nod in all 3 fights. And lets not bs, Ken Norton wasn't "tremendous". His whole rep is built on his fights with Ali. And he did appear to have Ali's number doe, but beyond Ali he didn't have a lot of success with too many other top guys. The fact his in the HOF lives & dies with the people who think he could've won all 3 fights with Ali & did actually get the nod in one of those fights. F#cking Norton was damn near the GGG of his day.

Ali is among the all time most overrated boxers. And Joe Louis might be among the most underrated great HW's of all time. More people seem to think Rocky was better than Louis cuz Rocky beat him when Louis was 73 years old. Almost Rocky's whole notable resume is built on beating old mfers ffs. He's overrated right with Ali.

The facts remain Louis was undefeated in his prime from age 23 to like 36. Granted he wasn't in a popular HW era like Ali, but he still beat more HOFers (8) than Ali (7). And all Louis' L's were to other HOFers. Ali lost to f#cking Leon Spinks & Trevor Berbick.

Ali was quick as f#ck so Louis would have to chase him down, but I think he wins rounds on effective aggression & probably catches up to him late & stops him or takes a decision.

if you're perceived as the goat you will always be overrated to some degree. ali was not overrated tho. he has fought and beat some of the greatest heavyweights of all time.

yes, norton had his number. just like jmm had pacquiao's number.

it happens. sometimes you run into a guy who is a stylstic nitghmare for you.

hell, i personally think joe is the goat hw, but i appreaciate ali and can understand why others think he was the man.

both ali and louis are rated just fine.

if there's an overrated hw it's mike tyson. he cracked under pression every.single.time.

[Eff Pandas]

if you're perceived as the goat you will always be overrated to some degree. ali was not overrated tho. he has fought and beat some of the greatest heavyweights of all time.

I do agree when you get big enough you do reach a point where your ability turns into mythical sh^t almost & all you can really be is overrated.

I do feel like Ali is massively overrated doe. I've stated this numerous times, but its almost like he had a cheat code for his era with his quickness. HW's being so slow being the quick HW all he had to do was control distance & jab. And thats all he did most of the time. And fair play it won him a lot of fights, but it wouldn't win him a fight with Joe Louis in some fantasy ass bs universe I don't believe.

yes, norton had his number. just like jmm had pacquiao's number.

Yea but no one is hyping Manny as the best WW either like too many people hype Ali as.

hell, i personally think joe is the goat hw, but i appreaciate ali and can understand why others think he was the man.

I understand why a lot of people think Ali is the best too. He was the Conor McGregor of his day. He had all the hype behind him. And I also think Ali doing all the things out of the ring he did & the impact he had on culture plays into it to.

if there's an overrated hw it's mike tyson. he cracked under pression every.single.time.

I don't see Tyson making it too high on many HW lists & don't recall seeing him in many people's top ten so idk if he's overrated necessarily. I think Tyson was one of those guys who was the best of his day, but his day just didn't last long & specifically as long as people expected so he's more of a disappointment to lotsa fans. And everything else beyond being the best of your day is just a bunch of boxing dorks arguing about unprovable sh^t anyway so it don't really matter. But yea I guess if someone gots Tyson in the top 15 or so (maybe lower idk I ain't doing a ranking in my head or anything) then they are probably overrated him.

One thing about Tyson I'll say & its sorta in the same vein as something I say about RJJ. When Tyson was on point I think he was among the most unbeatable HW's I've seen. He was so hard to hit, he hit other cats so hard & he just rained destruction on guys in 3 rounds or less vs the best guys around at the time. And thats the thing with RJJ to. I have a hard time hyping RJJ too much in these weird ass ATG & Goat debates, but he was unbeatable as all hell when he was at his best. More unbeatable then anyone I've ever seen.

[Szef]

I do agree when you get big enough you do reach a point where your ability turns into mythical sh^t almost & all you can really be is overrated.

I do feel like Ali is massively overrated doe. I've stated this numerous times, but its almost like he had a cheat code for his era with his quickness. HW's being so slow being the quick HW all he had to do was control distance & jab. And thats all he did most of the time. And fair play it won him a lot of fights, but it wouldn't win him a fight with Joe Louis in some fantasy ass bs universe I don't believe.



Yea but no one is hyping Manny as the best WW either like too many people hype Ali as.



I understand why a lot of people think Ali is the best too. He was the Conor McGregor of his day. He had all the hype behind him. And I also think Ali doing all the things out of the ring he did & the impact he had on culture plays into it to.



I don't see Tyson making it too high on many HW lists & don't recall seeing him in many people's top ten so idk if he's overrated necessarily. I think Tyson was one of those guys who was the best of his day, but his day just didn't last long & specifically as long as people expected so he's more of a disappointment to lotsa fans. And everything else beyond being the best of your day is just a bunch of boxing dorks arguing about unprovable sh^t anyway so it don't really matter. But yea I guess if someone gots Tyson in the top 15 or so (maybe lower idk I ain't doing a ranking in my head or anything) then they are probably overrated him.

One thing about Tyson I'll say & its sorta in the same vein as something I say about RJJ. When Tyson was on point I think he was among the most unbeatable HW's I've seen. He was so hard to hit, he hit other cats so hard & he just rained destruction on guys in 3 rounds or less vs the best guys around at the time. And thats the thing with RJJ to. I have a hard time hyping RJJ too much in these weird ass ATG & Goat debates, but he was unbeatable as all hell when he was at his best. More unbeatable then anyone I've ever seen.

Yes he did have a cheat code. And that's what i call GREATNESS.

This is what seperates regular fighters from great ones.

they have that x factor. in ali's case it was his speed, heart and ring iq.

honestly i rate ali that high because he beat george foreman.

to me, personally, that george foreman was the most unbeatable fighter of all time. and i've seen sonny liston, floyd mayweather fight. that's just my personal opinion doe,

i rate ali'swin over foreman much higher than rthose over frazier's.



manny isn't considered the goat but he's one of the two greatest fighters of this era. him losing arguably 4 times to a guy who's a stylistic nightmare to him doesn't mean he's not one of the greatests' of era.


this is the thing about tyson and roy. especially tyson.

there's a lot of 'if', 'would', 'could, surrouanding them.

tyson was a machine., but he crumbled under pression.

i don't care about this 'if he was on point' bs.

that's not how the real world works.

there was always a holyfield waiting to expose him.

tyson was a mental midget. with cus or not. it would always show when it mattered the most.

[CubanGuyNYC]

First off I hate fantasy bs, but this Ali is "the greatest" sh^t drives me cray cray lol. Ali was damn near the Conor McGregor of his day minus the quitting. He talked & built controversy better than anyone in history except Jack Johnson (who's underrated among great HW fighters too). He was charismatic & great at making fans love or hate him. Louis was very regular guy-ish so never garnered quite that level of hype or love or hate with fans. Popularity breeds hype in accomplishments quite often...

Good post. I won’t get into a point-by-point; suffice it to say, I agree with some ideas and not with others. I think you have a valid argument as to why Ali is overrated. Nonetheless, I believe Ali deserves his reputation. Some boxing experts rate him not only as the greatest HW of all time, but the greatest boxer ever. That said, it might come as a surprise that I consider Louis possibly the greater heavyweight. It’s splitting hairs at this level, and one opinion is as good as the next.

One thing about Tyson I'll say & its sorta in the same vein as something I say about RJJ. When Tyson was on point I think he was among the most unbeatable HW's I've seen. He was so hard to hit, he hit other cats so hard & he just rained destruction on guys in 3 rounds or less vs the best guys around at the time. And thats the thing with RJJ to. I have a hard time hyping RJJ too much in these weird ass ATG & Goat debates, but he was unbeatable as all hell when he was at his best. More unbeatable then anyone I've ever seen.

I feel the same way about this. Tyson is way overrated by those who don’t know heavyweight history. But I’ve always said, on his best night, Mike Tyson was capable of beating any man that ever set foot inside a ring. He might be overrated, but that’s saying something.

[Dip_Slide]

First off I hate fantasy bs, but this Ali is "the greatest" sh^t drives me cray cray lol. Ali was damn near the Conor McGregor of his day minus the quitting. He talked & built controversy better than anyone in history except Jack Johnson (who's underrated among great HW fighters too). He was charismatic & great at making fans love or hate him. Louis was very regular guy-ish so never garnered quite that level of hype or love or hate with fans. Popularity breeds hype in accomplishments quite often.

But back to the point. Ali lost to Frazier in his prime. He lost to Ken Norton in his prime & he probably Canelo'd him in the other two fights & plenty of people think that or feel Norton could've easily gotten the nod in all 3 fights. And lets not bs, Ken Norton wasn't "tremendous". His whole rep is built on his fights with Ali. And he did appear to have Ali's number doe, but beyond Ali he didn't have a lot of success with too many other top guys. The fact his in the HOF lives & dies with the people who think he could've won all 3 fights with Ali & did actually get the nod in one of those fights. F#cking Norton was damn near the GGG of his day.

Ali is among the all time most overrated boxers. And Joe Louis might be among the most underrated great HW's of all time. More people seem to think Rocky was better than Louis cuz Rocky beat him when Louis was 73 years old. Almost Rocky's whole notable resume is built on beating old mfers ffs. He's overrated right with Ali.

The facts remain Louis was undefeated in his prime from age 23 to like 36. Granted he wasn't in a popular HW era like Ali, but he still beat more HOFers (8) than Ali (7). And all Louis' L's were to other HOFers. Ali lost to f#cking Leon Spinks & Trevor Berbick.

Ali was quick as f#ck so Louis would have to chase him down, but I think he wins rounds on effective aggression & probably catches up to him late & stops him or takes a decision.

But who did Louis beat that was on the level of Sonny Liston? Joe Frazier? George Foreman and all the rest of the great really dangerous (probably roided) heavyweights of that era? Joe Louis had the bum of the month club and was KOed by Max Schmeling, who's not actually lower than Norton imo. Just list Louis' best wins and compare them to Ali's.

Losing to Norton or to Schmeling is a matter of styles and both avenged these at least on paper. Also Ali's losses all came when he was clearly past his prime after a pretty long layoff. These don't diminish a fighter's legacy, bottom line is he faced much greater adversity and came out on top.

Joe Louis was clearly undersized for the heavyweights of the 70s and he would get easily handled by any of the good ones let alone Ali, doesn't diminish his legacy at all though, but I don't agree with idea of Louis even being competitive with a guy like Ali. Just like Ali wouldn't have been competitive with someone like Lennox Lewis.