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It doesn't matter who claims furys lineal .
No title = No lineal status.
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Yes team Wilder did ,they also retracted it when Fury declined a second fight and he wasn't the lineal ,he was a bum .
It doesn't matter who claims furys lineal .
No title = No lineal status. -
You provide a link, I provide a link, someone else provides a link.Tyson Fury is the only one who did it. Tyson Fury is the only one who stepped in the ring and beat Klitschko when Klitschko was the lineal champion. Muhammad Ali is the only one who stepped in the ring and beat Sonny Liston when Liston was the lineal champion. WHEN ALI CAME BACK, Joe Frazier is the only one who stepped in the ring and beat Ali. You have beat the man to become the man. Especially, if the man COMES BACK. This has been going on since 1908, when Jim Jefferies came back and fought Jack Johnson after HIS temporary retirement.
But don't take my word for it:
Jefferies:
"Because Jeffries had retired undefeated and had not actually ‘lost’ his heavyweight title, many felt he remained the true champion. "
Ali:
"He made nine defenses between 1965 and '67 before he was stripped of his titles after being found guilty on draft evasion charges. He'd eventually lose the lineal title in the ring to Joe Frazier in 1971."
"In many minds Ali remained the genuine heavyweight champion of the world because he never lost his title to another fighter inside the ring." (ringtv link)
https://www.******.com/181567-ali-quarry-remembered/
Fury:
"Tyson Fury (27-0, 19 KO) doesn’t have a major sanctioning body title. For them, he doesn’t need one. He’s the man who beat the man."
https://www.boxingscene.com/lineage-...weight--134150
In fact I'll go with the site you quoted for Jeffries with an opinion on Ali and Frazier
Two weeks before the match, Ali graciously retired, surrendering his claim to the title so the sport could move on.
If Ali never got licenced again I'm guessing you would argue that the lineage changed with Ellis v Frazier. When Ali came back it rendered that lineage redundant and it was always with Ali? If Lennox came back now presumably Wlad and Fury were never lineal? You see how pointless this discussion is? History sorts it out - fighters either return or they don't but we don't know that at the time. The lineage gets resolved in hindsight. But very rarely is it definite - it takes a dominant boxer to take all doubt away. Ali did that, Tyson did that, Lewis did that. Fury certainly hasn't done that post his two retirement announcements.
We both have a valid opinion on the lineage and when it changed hands.
The difference between me and you is that I understand that it's debatable, whereas you think your opinion has to be correct.
The sad thing here is that I can see more and more fighters retiring undefeated or only fighting big names outside of their prime. If we don't get 1 v 2 we may not see certainty in the lineal champion for some time.Last edited by Toffee; 05-04-2019, 05:59 PM.Comment
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Actually, the difference between you and me is that I SEE a clear distinction between a mythical lineal title (that can only be won or lost in the ring) and an actual title sanctioned by a governing body.You provide a link, I provide a link, someone else provides a link.
In fact I'll go with the site you quoted for Jeffries with an opinion on Ali and Frazier
Two weeks before the match, Ali graciously retired, surrendering his claim to the title so the sport could move on.
If Ali never got licenced again I'm guessing you would argue that the lineage changed with Ellis v Frazier. When Ali came back it rendered that lineage redundant and it was always with Ali? If Lennox came back now presumably Wlad and Fury were never lineal? You see how pointless this discussion is? History sorts it out - fighters either return or they don't but we don't know that at the time. The lineage gets resolved in hindsight. But very rarely is it definite - it takes a dominant boxer to take all doubt away. Ali did that, Tyson did that, Lewis did that. Fury certainly hasn't done that post his two retirement announcements.
We both have a valid opinion on the lineage and when it changed hands.
The difference between me and you is that I understand that it's debatable, whereas you think your opinion has to be correct.
The sad thing here is that I can see more and more fighters retiring undefeated or only fighting big names outside of their prime. If we don't get 1 v 2 we may not see certainty in the lineal champion for some time.
So it's painfully obvious that Fury is the current lineal champion without an actual belt. It's clear as day...
And in your highlighted quote from the article, Ali relinquished the actual belt, which is separate from the lineal title. When he came back, he came back AS the lineal champion without an actual belt. Frazier only became the lineal champion when he beat Ali.
I agree that Fury has taken liberties during his reign (and continues to), but it doesn't change the fact that he owns the lineage at this time. Simple facts, but only because I don't conflate the lineage with the actual belts. Two separate things...Last edited by davefromvancouv; 05-05-2019, 11:29 AM.Comment
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You've confused me with someone else. I've never said you need a belt, that was another guy in the thread. The article pretty clearly talks about Ali retiring so that the lineal could be fought for. Belts had long since ceased to be a factor.
Whether I agree with that or not isn't the point. It's clear that Frazier was lineal champ when the scores were read out against Ali. Whether he went in holding the title doesn't matter.
Like I've said repeatedly, it gets resolved in hindsight, not the present. Which is why Fury can have a claim to it, but it's not something real. He's been banned, retired, and is onto his third Z grade opponent. He's using something historically important to boxing fans as a marketing tool and pissing all over the history.
Compare that to Ali retiring for the sport's good.Last edited by Toffee; 05-05-2019, 04:48 PM.Comment
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Stfu u fat cokehead cheat.Comment
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Then stop trying to rewrite history. Fury doesn't have a claim to the lineal title. He actually did it. Fury beat Klitschko. That's all that matters with the lineage. Being banned, temporarily retired or refusing to fight the best opposition has absolutely nothing to do with what happened in that ring in 2015. Fury. Beat. Klitschko. So he's the lineal champ.
It's a pisser, but it's the truth. Plain as day.Comment
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Fury's last words on his deathbead will be "lineal doe"Comment
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He had lineal status aka was the top heavyweight when he beat Wlad, then he retired instead of rematching Wlad, failed a ped test, got so fat that he couldn't compete and didn't fight for over 2 years. Therefore, Fury lost lineal status. Imo the lineal status is vacant until Wilder, Joshua, Fury and possibly even Usyk and Whyte all fight each other and we see who the best of the best is.Comment
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Fury's lineal status is just as debatable as Ali's was after he retired and gave his blessing for Ellis and Frazier to fight for the lineal.
By your reckoning if Lewis comes out of retirement he's been lineal the whole time and none of this is relevant.
But I'll leave it there... if you can't see that your post is an opinion rather than a fact then I'm out of avenues.Comment
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