Comments Thread For: Holyfield: Wilder is The Best at Heavyweight, Not Joshua

[SeGoodland]

You can admit though that if it’s only about winning belts to determine who #1 is

Then the fighter like AJ who has the support of a nation that enables him to be a cash cow makes it far easier for him to collect straps because Fighters will always fight AJ over Wilder because of the $ he can offer them.

I mean Haymon advises Martin and it would have been easy to set up a Wilder fight but he got his fighter the most $ by having him fight AJ for a figure That a Isnt even comparable to what a Wilder opponet would make

Not exactly the fairest way to look at it , Wouldnt you agree

In the current climate, there are some of what you say that I agree with but some points that I don't.

Considering Wilder is rated at #3 and the WBC Champ, its not entirely about winning belts to be #1. However, Yes, Joshua is a lucky guy to be where he is as he has so many cash-rich influencers and backers, not fair on those guys that beat Joshua as an amateur! He was in the right place at the right time.

Matchroom (or you could say just Eddie Hearn) has created the market in boxing that has followed the mould of so many other popular sports out there! Of course, people want to make as much money as possible. Not sure where you are from but in Football, Paris Saint Germain changed the football market when they bought Neymar for £200m. Overnight, footballers values went through the roof! The American sports have huge salaries out there. I guess you can either see it as a natural evolution of boxing, an unfortunate thing or something that is good for all of boxing. Like so many things nowadays, having money means you go places.

I don't really know what fair is anymore. Boxing is more about opinion than fair, isn't it? That's what we all do on here day after day, fight after fight is just argue about stuff that is completely out of our hands.

Wilder fans constantly saying Joshua turned down $50m, Whyte wanting more money to fight, Fury signs £80m ESPN deal...its all about money. Its never about a title shot. Is that fair on Joshua and Wilder?

[JWHardin]

In the current climate, there are some of what you say that I agree with but some points that I don't.

Considering Wilder is rated at #3 and the WBC Champ, its not entirely about winning belts to be #1. However, Yes, Joshua is a lucky guy to be where he is as he has so many cash-rich influencers and backers, not fair on those guys that beat Joshua as an amateur! He was in the right place at the right time.

Matchroom (or you could say just Eddie Hearn) has created the market in boxing that has followed the mould of so many other popular sports out there! Of course, people want to make as much money as possible. Not sure where you are from but in Football, Paris Saint Germain changed the football market when they bought Neymar for £200m. Overnight, footballers values went through the roof! The American sports have huge salaries out there. I guess you can either see it as a natural evolution of boxing, an unfortunate thing or something that is good for all of boxing. Like so many things nowadays, having money means you go places.

I don't really know what fair is anymore. Boxing is more about opinion than fair, isn't it? That's what we all do on here day after day, fight after fight is just argue about stuff that is completely out of our hands.

Wilder fans constantly saying Joshua turned down $50m, Whyte wanting more money to fight, Fury signs £80m ESPN deal...its all about money. Its never about a title shot. Is that fair on Joshua and Wilder?

You type a lot, but don't really say anything that matters, is interesting, or matter of fact. It's kind of like you are seeking attention more than anything. Why not shorten up your posts and attempt to make them more meaningful.

[todisday]

I don't need a tape or video ,heres his quote.

"It was a black out-type of feeling. By the time I got back up, the ref was in my face and I was like, "what's going on?'" D.Wilder

Getting knocked down hard while talking to the ref is no merit to stop a fight in comparison to over 10 unanswered blows from Ortiz where the doctors have to look at you the next round as opposed to Fury out boxing wilder after the knockdown. On what planet ? Ha

lol Those two examples are completely different from what happened to Fury. Wilder was firing back versus Ortiz, so that's an inaccurate description. Fury was knocked out cold. He was out until 6, from the look of that picture. Any other referee would've waved that off, as that is standard boxing procedure. I've never seen a fighter be knocked out cold like that without the fight being called off.

How is that the same as Wilder getting knocked down hard and getting back up? I don't know where that quote is from, but I'd have to see a video of the knockdown, because it seems as if you're trying to say that Wilder was out cold, too? He doesn't say anywhere in that quote that he was out. He's just describing the feeling of having your senses taken away from you for a moment, which is what a knockdown is. That and being literally half-dead on the canvass are two very different things. Boxers get knocked down all the time, but fights continue. Fighters never get knocked out cold and receive a 10 count.

It's called being able to continue. You cannot continue if you are KOed. Sure, if you wait long enough any fighter, barring death, will snap out of it. But if this were actual combat, that would be it for Fury. It doesn't get more final than a guy literally being KOed. Moreover, allowing a guy who just got knocked out to continue shows no respect for the guy's health. Watch how Fury cranks his neck now. Listen to his voice. He's ducking for a reason. That referee didn't do him any favors by letting Wilder get a couple more huge left hooks on him before the round ended. Had Wilder not been so gassed after all the showboating, it could've even been worse.

[R_Walken]

In the current climate, there are some of what you say that I agree with but some points that I don't.

Considering Wilder is rated at #3 and the WBC Champ, its not entirely about winning belts to be #1. However, Yes, Joshua is a lucky guy to be where he is as he has so many cash-rich influencers and backers, not fair on those guys that beat Joshua as an amateur! He was in the right place at the right time.

Matchroom (or you could say just Eddie Hearn) has created the market in boxing that has followed the mould of so many other popular sports out there! Of course, people want to make as much money as possible. Not sure where you are from but in Football, Paris Saint Germain changed the football market when they bought Neymar for £200m. Overnight, footballers values went through the roof! The American sports have huge salaries out there. I guess you can either see it as a natural evolution of boxing, an unfortunate thing or something that is good for all of boxing. Like so many things nowadays, having money means you go places.

I don't really know what fair is anymore. Boxing is more about opinion than fair, isn't it? That's what we all do on here day after day, fight after fight is just argue about stuff that is completely out of our hands.

Wilder fans constantly saying Joshua turned down $50m, Whyte wanting more money to fight, Fury signs £80m ESPN deal...its all about money. Its never about a title shot. Is that fair on Joshua and Wilder?

Agree boxing isn’t about being fair. It goes where the $ is

Which is why you can’t really say the only criteria for being #1 is the belts when AJs in a position to get the fights to get the straps.

You have to consider the quality of opponents for #1 . And while
AJ has the better resume but its done by beating fighters in the 5-10 range. And has yet Fight any of the guys considered # 2-4. Wilder chasing fights against the #3-4 guys has to be looked at more favourably and he continues to chase the biggest challenges then he may eclipse AJ as being the #1 down the road.

And just 1 more thing There
Is no way you can make a case that Fury deserves #2 regardless of how you feel the Wilder fight went

Officially it was a draw and when given the opportunity to make things right and see which guy is among the 2 best HWs with a immediate rematch at 50/50 . Tyson made moves that basically certainly blocked a rematch from happening anytime soon. In a move that can’t be looked as anything other then running away from Wilder. Those are not the actions and decisions that should be rewarded with Tyson being #2 from a fight that was officially a draw. Even if you believe Tyson clearly won only 55% have this opinion and not much more then the 45% who believe Wilder won or it was a draw.

[SeGoodland]

You type a lot, but don't really say anything that matters, is interesting, or matter of fact. It's kind of like you are seeking attention more than anything. Why not shorten up your posts and attempt to make them more meaningful.

Oh I didn't realise that I had to posts just to impress you! Why didn't anyone tell me?

And as the obvious authority on this forum, please, tell me what else I can do to please you?

[SeGoodland]

Agree boxing isn’t about being fair. It goes where the $ is

Which is why you can’t really say the only criteria for being #1 is the belts when AJs in a position to get the fights to get the straps.

You have to consider the quality of opponents for #1 . And while
AJ has the better resume but its done by beating fighters in the 5-10 range. And has yet Fight any of the guys considered # 2-4. Wilder chasing fights against the #3-4 guys has to be looked at more favourably and he continues to chase the biggest challenges then he may eclipse AJ as being the #1 down the road.

And just 1 more thing There
Is no way you can make a case that Fury deserves #2 regardless of how you feel the Wilder fight went

Officially it was a draw and when given the opportunity to make things right and see which guy is among the 2 best HWs with a immediate rematch at 50/50 . Tyson made moves that basically certainly blocked a rematch from happening anytime soon. In a move that can’t be looked as anything other then running away from Wilder. Those are not the actions and decisions that should be rewarded with Tyson being #2 from a fight that was officially a draw. Even if you believe Tyson clearly won only 55% have this opinion and not much more then the 45% who believe Wilder won or it was a draw.

You will hear no argument from me that Fury should be #2. IMO, Fury did enough to win despite to the 2 KDs. I feel as if Fury should have won but not because I don't like Wilder. I dislike Fury as much but I want the rematch as much as I want Joshua and Wilder to fight.

If I picked the rankings, there would be no fighters who got caught abusing. They would be outside the rankings and would have to negotiate their fights as a PED abuser and (clearly marked as one) in order to get them. Ortiz, Whyte, Fury - they'd all be out. If Joshua popped too, it would be the same for him, no double standards.

#1 Joshua, #2 Wilder.

I know what you are saying regarding Joshua's resume fighting 5-10 guys but he has done that consistently whereas Wilder is only really just starting to do that. Where Wilder is chasing Fury and Joshua, Joshua is seemingly chasing those two as well - but its all about what you want to believe I guess.

[Toffee]

You have to consider the quality of opponents for #1 . And while
AJ has the better resume but its done by beating fighters in the 5-10 range. And has yet Fight any of the guys considered # 2-4. Wilder chasing fights against the #3-4 guys has to be looked at more favourably and he continues to chase the biggest challenges then he may eclipse AJ as being the #1 down the road.

But AJ has fought top 5 fighters. Parker was top 5, Povetkin was top 5. Actually I think they were both ranked 3. Then there's Klitschko. We could throw Dillian in but he wasn't ranked that highly back then.

Who are these top fighters that Wilder is chasing? Fury was hardly ranked off the back of two comeback dances. I'll give you Ortiz, though his TBRB and Ring rankings continue to amaze me.

[champion4ever]

Sorry to cut your response up dude! I did read it all! I appreciate the long response, its better than a one liner from a troll.

I think that we are looking at it from such differing views that its all opinion really. Joshua, IMO is still a massive hit in the UK whereas Wilder isn't really known. Fury is making a resurgence but he still sits behind Joshua with casuals IMO. Are you aware of the marmite analogy? Tyson Fury is like marmite. I can't really say about Wilders standing with the American public. It seems that he isn't a massive star even after the Fury draw but then again, he's in the shadow of your sporting culture around NFL and NBA so I wouldn't know being British.

Regarding Klitschko, again, its differing views. Wilder has said one thing, Finkel has said another (link in my sig) so as someone who dislikes Wilder, something that promotes my agenda works for me but realistically if, as a 'team', they cannot get the same message across then there is something wrong with that.

Regarding Ortiz, you could look at this in so many ways. Ortiz has 'mythical' status in my mind. He did well against Wilder to rock the champ and nearly put him away but yet the Travis Kauffman fight was terrible! Ortiz is either held in really high regard or he is described as really overrated. But, it was a good fight and a good one for Wilder.

Yes, you are correct, Fury did take advantage of the fact that Joshua/Wilder wasn't progressing but Wilder had it all his own way in the negotiations because, to him, it was a low risk fight. Its a no-brainer for Wilder because in his mind, he was going to be taking on someone who just got off the couch and Fury's lineal title would have added to Wilder's value in the Joshua negotiations. That's a cherry pick.

Again, all differing views but that's boxing.

First, I would want to say thank you for the compliment. I appreciate you taking the time in reading my reply. You made a lot of points in your post; Most of which I disagree with. However, in any case it, I respect your right to post them.

In regards to your points; Sure I am fully aware of what a marmite analogy is. It's either you like something or you don't. It's anything that is polarizing or controversial. Which best describes Tyson Fury in the U.K.

With Ortiz I agree to a point; It wasn't his best performance but it takes two to fight and it was so obvious that Kaufmann was not there to win but to collect a pay check and survive.

Now onto Wilder/Klitschko. Remember that Shelly Finkel works for Deontay Wilder. Wilder is the principle where as Shelly Finkel is the agent. Meaning it's Deontay's career and he doesn't have to accept career advice from everything that one of his ancillaries say. That's why he took the Ortiz fight when his advisors were so bitterly against it because they felt it was too risky.

Lastly, here is probably where we disagree the most. Like Luis Ortiz, Tyson Fury was a high risk/low reward fight; So he couldn't have been a cherrypick for Deontay Wilder. Therefore, he had no use for him at the time. First, he had been banished from the sport for doping and juicing. In addition, he had been virtually forgotten by the British public.

Moreover, he came to the bargaining table empty handed with had no leverage, no titles, he was not a box office draw or popular with casual fans or even packed enough meat in the seats. However, he reached out to Wilder and requested a title defense of Wilder's WBC title and out of the goodness of Deontay's heart; He accepted and granted his request.

Wilder threw Fury a lifeline; A good gift if you will for a charitable voluntary challenge of his WBC championship which Fury did not earn or deserved. Moreover, he was no where on The Bronze Bomber's radar. Tyson was not a fight that Deontay wanted but AJ was.

However, Fury was a very good fighter and an undefeated and dangerous one too who hadn't lost his belts in the ring; Which gave the fight the marketing ploy of Fury being billed as the "lineal champion" in order to increase sales because neither had fought on PPV.

In closing, Wilder did not have his way in the negotiations as you say because Deontay wanted the venue in either in New York or Las Vegas but Fury vetoed it by stating that he wanted a venue who had neutral judges from different countries; Therefore they settled for California. So therefore, Fury picked both the venue and the judges for their bout.

LOL, Here I am again; Another long post but I am just trying to be as honest and accurate as I can. However, I'll give you the last word.

[R_Walken]

You will hear no argument from me that Fury should be #2. IMO, Fury did enough to win despite to the 2 KDs. I feel as if Fury should have won but not because I don't like Wilder. I dislike Fury as much but I want the rematch as much as I want Joshua and Wilder to fight.

If I picked the rankings, there would be no fighters who got caught abusing. They would be outside the rankings and would have to negotiate their fights as a PED abuser and (clearly marked as one) in order to get them. Ortiz, Whyte, Fury - they'd all be out. If Joshua popped too, it would be the same for him, no double standards.

#1 Joshua, #2 Wilder.

I know what you are saying regarding Joshua's resume fighting 5-10 guys but he has done that consistently whereas Wilder is only really just starting to do that. Where Wilder is chasing Fury and Joshua, Joshua is seemingly chasing those two as well - but its all about what you want to believe I guess.

Yeah man there’s a lot of things we both agree on and some things we don’t

I also have AJ #1 because the amount of quality opponents outweighs Wilders last 2’fights of him chasing the best

My only thing is if they continue to not fight to see whos #1 andAJ continues not to fight the biggest challenges and
Wilder continues to chase them and wins at some point it has to tip in Wilders FAVOUR of being #1 but he isn’t there yet because the amount of good AJ opponent has . It doesnt matter who holds the most belts in this case because AJ can always get them before wilder. But if I’m being honest Wilder seems to be almost out of Challenges AJ hasn’t fought yet so it might not matter

[Robertthebruce]

I genuinely laughed so hard reading your response.

I don't know who you are or who you follow but you sound like a Wilder fan and judging by your actual knowledge of boxing, I think its clear who is deluded

You are hilarious mate. Absolutely hilarious.

Glad you laughed cos it was a tounge in cheek response lol. In all seriousness I ain't a wilder fan and was hoping Joshua would have fought him last year and ko'd him to be the number 1 but he didn't