Comments Thread For: Quality Quintet: Hatton, Morales and Winky highlight IBHOF class

[Tomasio]

If there's someone on that list that deserves to be in the IBHOF is Wilfredo Vazquez who is a 3 division world champion & did 21 world title fights most of those title fights(except one that was in his country) were either in his opponents home turf or in a neutral venue & he has been eligible since 2009.At that time (in 2009) was between him & Orlando Canizales who Vazquez beat when they fought in Canizales home state (Texas) & ironically Canizales got picked into the IBHOF.

[BattlingNelson]

I would count Roy Jones Jr as a massive miss.

Not DM's fault that rjj wouldn't travel.

But how many of those guys he beat do you really say "Wow" to.

That's your subjective opinion. DM dominated his division for years showing the longevity that imo is paramount for hof consideration.

Jones was the best fighter at 175.

Possibly, but he wasn't the champion. He just had all the trinkets the alphabet boys took off DM in the most dubious of fashions.

Not if you're suggesting that Jones should have gone to Germany to fight DM. Jones had the better resume and was the bigger star.

He would be the challenger looking for the one win to solidify him being king of the division, so yes he should have travelled.

I don't want DM to do anything. If he didn't want to travel that's on him. I just think it reflects poorly on him because I find his resume insufficient for the Hall of Fame.

That's your opinion. I find his resume much stronger than say Hills or Meldrick Taylor or Don Curry or Julian Jackson.

Never said robberies don't happen outside of Germany. Robberies happen all the time in America but it isn't always the American fighter that benefits from it. For instance, Canelo (a Mexican) got much closer scores against FMjr (an American) than he should have and I think one judge actually gave it to him. Many people think that Daniel Jacobs (an American) got robbed against GGG (Kazakstan). Even more people think that GGG beat the Canelo and got robbed himself. So while there are robberies and controversies in the US the reasoning behind it has more to do with who is the star than where they come from. If DM did what GGG did he might have gotten the benefit of the doubt against RJJ.

you are missing the timing aspect here. It's not like those fights where happening back then. No back then you had Schulz and sturm being on the short end of very controversial decisions.

I could comment a lot to the points you make, but will spare you because the points you made are irrelevant to the case we are debating in this thread.

It is. But its not a big point considering Ward's resume. I mean, the only real international fighters he could have fought were Lucien Bute and Adonis Stevenson. Bute was beaten by someone Ward beat and Stevenson ducked ever real challenge in his division ever since he became champion.

It's worth noting that he had offers for returns against Kessler (who he beat with illegal tactics) and Froch. Both fights in Europe. Ward flat out didn't want to travel.

And Bute was the one fighter he missed at that stage and again Ward flat out turned down a two fight deal for a fight in jOakland and return in Montreal.

[yankees7448]

Not DM's fault that rjj wouldn't travel.

Yes it is. DM didn't have the name or the resume to justify RJJ fighting him in his home country. DM needed to move to get the fight. He didn't want it.

That's your subjective opinion. DM dominated his division for years showing the longevity that imo is paramount for hof consideration.

Never said he wasn't worthy of consideration. All I am saying is that after some consideration his resume wasn't strong enough.

Possibly, but he wasn't the champion. He just had all the trinkets the alphabet boys took off DM in the most dubious of fashions.

Not possibly. When RJJ was at his best he was in a class of his own. Quite possibly the most physically talented man to lace up a pair of gloves in decades.

He would be the challenger looking for the one win to solidify him being king of the division, so yes he should have travelled.

No. No one knew who the fuuck DM was outside of Germany. No reason for RJJ to travel to challenge someone whose best wins were over RJJ's sloppy seconds.

That's your opinion. I find his resume much stronger than say Hills or Meldrick Taylor or Don Curry or Julian Jackson.

I am not voting for any of those guys.

you are missing the timing aspect here. It's not like those fights where happening back then. No back then you had Schulz and sturm being on the short end of very controversial decisions.

Bad decisions happen in the US all the time.

It's worth noting that he had offers for returns against Kessler (who he beat with illegal tactics) and Froch. Both fights in Europe. Ward flat out didn't want to travel.

That's true but at the end of the day he still beat them both. It would have been nice if he was willing to challenge them overseas. I think he should have challenged them to rematches overseas. I think it would have made his resume stronger. But still....they already exist as notches on his belt. A victory by those others guys would be more significant than Ward's victory over them. Unfortunately for them they lost.

And Bute was the one fighter he missed at that stage and again Ward flat out turned down a two fight deal for a fight in jOakland and return in Montreal.

As I mentioned. But Ward beat the guy who destroyed Bute. Granted, fights are fought in real life and not in hypotheticals. It would have been nice if Ward did fight Bute. But the fights we did see determined the 168 pound pecking order and Bute was below a guy Ward beat.

[coghaugen]

Hatton and Winky before Julian Jackson and Nigel Benn and Meldrick Taylor?!

[Dr.Cool]

Michalczewski doesn't deserve to be in. Though DM was a huge miss for RJJ. RJJ in his prime had DM who was vying for best in the same weight class and Hopkins vying for best p4p. This was the scene for almost the entire prime of Jones. And he refused to fight either one of them. But even RJJ fought better competition than DM.

Benn, Vitali, Wright, Meldrick Taylor, and Morales.

Also, that was a typo, no one voted for Sung-Kil Moon. No one. Not even Sung-Kil Moon feels he deserves to be in hof.

[Teetotaler]

Hatton had a good career, but beating old Zoo and old Castillo and losing to Collazo shouldnt get you in the HOF

Lockridge should get in just for the street KO in front of the laundromat......lol

He lost to collazo?
To be fair collazo got robbed against hatton and berto

[Mzembe]

I am not British. I am not here to fight battles from the past. Controversial wins still count as wins.

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So the only response you have is that you are not British. Ok, I take that back.
Controversial win is still a win, no doubt about that but it does not carry any favors to get a fighter into Canastota.

Hatton is a C average fighter with a very weak resume. He got plastered against much better boxers. How do you expect voters to shoo him into the HoF without addressing what I just addressed with you. Don't be blinded by your love of Hatton.

I like Hatton as a person BUT he was NOT a good boxer at all.

[yankees7448]

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So the only response you have is that you are not British. Ok, I take that back.

Correcting unsubstantiated bias is not a small matter.

Controversial win is still a win, no doubt about that but it does not carry any favors to get a fighter into Canastota.

To those who harp on such things. No one put an asterisk next to Sugar Ray Leonard's victory over Marvin Hagler. I am not going to do the same. And for the record, I agree that Collazo won. But I am sure some people agree with the official result and the official result (which is the only tangible fact in the debate) is that Hatton won.

Hatton is a C average fighter with a very weak resume. He got plastered against much better boxers. How do you expect voters to shoo him into the HoF without addressing what I just addressed with you. Don't be blinded by your love of Hatton.

I am not blinded by love of Hatton. Stop with these fuucking strawman arguments. Secondly, almost every fighter who fought in the lower weight classes got dominated by Pac-man and/or Mayweather. Cotto got dominated by them. Shane Mosley got dominated by them. Canelo Alvarez was dominated by Mayweather. Marco Antonio Barrera got dominated by Pac-man. Being dominated by two of the best of their era doesn't mean you're not Hall of Fame worthy. It doesn't mean you're a C-level fighter. All this means is that a great fighter ran into guys who had his number. There are worse things for a fighter to be than a rung below the best fighters of your generation. I could see the justification to deny Hatton a spot if you really want to hold a high standard but I chose to look a little more broadly. We just hold different opinions. But stop with the lame accusations of bias please.

[yankees7448]

Michalczewski doesn't deserve to be in. Though DM was a huge miss for RJJ. RJJ in his prime had DM who was vying for best in the same weight class and Hopkins vying for best p4p. This was the scene for almost the entire prime of Jones. And he refused to fight either one of them. But even RJJ fought better competition than DM.

Benn, Vitali, Wright, Meldrick Taylor, and Morales.

RJJ and DM were huge misses for each other. But as I explained earlier, DM's biggest wins almost universally came against RJJ's sloppy seconds. One of DM's 2 losses came to a guy Jones dominated. And for the record, during that time period Hopkins was down at 160 and pursing guys like Trinidad and De La Hoya for obvious and justified reason. It made him a star. And they fought their rematch eventually its just a shame RJJ was a gun shy shell of his former self by then.

And sorry, Nigel Benn does not deserve to be in the Hall.

[Mzembe]

Correcting unsubstantiated bias is not a small matter.

To those who harp on such things. No one put an asterisk next to Sugar Ray Leonard's victory over Marvin Hagler. I am not going to do the same. And for the record, I agree that Collazo won.

I am not blinded by love of Hatton. Stop with these fuucking strawman arguments. Secondly, almost every fighter who fought in the lower weight classes got dominated by Pac-man and/or Mayweather. Cotto got dominated by them. Shane Mosley got dominated by them. Canelo Alvarez was dominated by Mayweather. Marco Antonio Barrera got dominated by Pac-man. Being dominated by two of the best of their era doesn't mean you're not Hall of Fame worthy. It doesn't mean you're a C-level fighter. All this means is that a great fighter ran into guys who had his number. I could see the justification to deny Hatton a spot if you really want to hold a high standard but I chose to look a little more broadly. We just hold different opinions. But stop with the lame accusations of bias please.

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Your reasoning is well thought out and compelling and I apologize for coming off condescending and biased. I post a lot and have no time for ****** reasoning so I just went at you. Again, I do apologize.

That said and please humor me this if you will. Ricardo Mayorga beat a HoF boxer, Vernon Forrrest who was undefeated at the time and also beat Fernando Vargas. Having those two wins on his resume puts him above Hatton in my opinion but what is the difference between those two. Mayorga is a bonafide BUM. I can't even believe he beat Forrest. I have the same shock that Hatton beat Malignaggi who is a much better boxer than Hatton could ever be.

My question to you is, would you say Mayorga worthy of being in the Hall of Fame like you do Hatton? Think about it. Look at their careers. Very similar in every sense.