Better Resume and Why: Andre Ward or Sven Ottke

[Kuyukut]

no debate on this sven 'the white slick' ottke >>>>ward & fraud jr combined!

[GhostofDempsey]

He's not pushing 40 like Pac and Wlad, nor has he been through multiple wars like Cotto.

Nice try.

So now it's age that is being used to quantify his record? The man has been on the fence about retirement for some time now. If he ends his career after the Kovalev rematch then that's the end of his legacy and you can't use age as a comparative factor. You can only go by his 32 fight career that is good, but not great.

[daggum]

badou jack has a comparable resume at 168 to ward. he really does. obv taking in mind the 2 terrible decisions against bute and degale that he soundly won. why is he not p4p #1 or even on the list??? because of bad decisions? so ward is #1 because he was the recipient of a bad decision and jack cant even crack the top 10 because he recieved a couple? kovalev recieved one and hes still #2 so do bad decisions factor into rankings or not? maybe sometimes...

and jack didnt win any of those fights by holding or headbuting like ward did against kessler and bika. he beat the #1 guy(degale), #3 guy(groves), #6 guy(dirrell), a former #1 guy(bute) that ward had ducked and medina who easily could be in top 10 since a lot of people had him beating degale. ward beat the #1 guy(controvesially), #3 guy(froch), #5 guy(bika), #7 guy(green) and the #10 guy twice(abraham, rodriguez)

i dont see a big difference and i would say jack beat a wider and more difficult range of styles. the guys ward fought aside from weird bika are straight up and down, no special effects. dirrell, bute, groves, and degale would never be described that way.

if everyone is agaisnt ward and holding him back like he delusionaly claims...my god badou jack might go on a killing spree soon

[robertzimmerman]

Let's get the record straight...I said Ward has a slightly better resume than Ottke. I also said, if I were to start a thread on here touting the greatness of Kessler, Abraham, Dawson, Bika, and Froch I would be laughed out of the forum. I asked how Ward is so great if his opponents weren't so great. Fair question.

Andre has a very good resume.

I understand your question, but a fighter can still be classed as great despite not having lots of stellar wins.

Look at his ability. An*lyse it. He's an A level, elite fighter.

Floyd Mayweather is one of the greatest fighters of all time. Some people may say THE greatest. But he never beat any A level guys whilst they were prime.

The good news for Andre, is that he's hopefully still got a good few years left in him.

[robertzimmerman]

But dominating divisions is a lot easier if it isn't very deep with talent. GGG is dominating MW, but there's no one on his resume that stands out as a great opponent. I hold GGG to the same standard as Ward. Andre probably could have moved to 175 a lot sooner against better opponents, but he fought the same style fighter for most of his career...slow brawlers and stiff Euro-bots.

Two close decisions over Kovalev and Froch (where most thought Kov won and Ward ran from Froch) and going the distance with Abraham, Mirdanda, Bika, Brand, Green, Rodriquez, Berrera, Buchanan, doesn't scream greatness. He's a skilled fighter but I have trouble listing him as an All-Time Great which was the original question in your other thread.

A few things to note:

He could have gone to 175 earlier, but he was hampered by injuries and promotional issues.

Apart from Bute and Dirrell, he cleaned out the SMW division.

He didn't have a close fight with Froch, and he had a double fracture of his hand in the fight.

Yes, he had a close fight with Kovalev, but Kovalev is considered by many to be a beast, and Andre had him looking bewildered and devoid of ideas in the last part of the fight.

Yes, he went the distance with those fighters that you listed. But he's not a big puncher. So he was never expected to stop those guys. There's plenty of great fighters of the past who weren't big punchers. That shouldn't really alter your opinion of him.

[robertzimmerman]

ottke for sure. 21 title defenses. no controversies like ward. super six made people overrate 168. it was thought of as a trash division but then everyone beat each other and what talent! some of the slowest and stiffest guys ive ever seen and the type of guys the slick brigade always bashes are now held up as great wins...if jacobs, lemieux, saunders, etc...all beat each other would that make them better fighters and the division good?

I'm assuming you're joking.

Sven's resume isn't better, and he was incredibly lucky to retire unbeaten.

[robertzimmerman]

Exactly! Like I said earlier, if I start a thread going on about how great Kessler, Dawson, Abraham, Bika, Green or even Froch were, I'd be laughed out of here. But, Ward beats them all by decision and somehow this qualifies him as an ATG. The same Ward fans who bash Kovalev as B-rate still want to give credit to Ward for beating him, which has been up for debate.

I know the OP thinks I'm just hating on Ward, but when you take a step back and an impartial view of his career, where are the GREAT opponents who he beat to make him an ALL TIME GREAT? Still waiting for an direct answer from the OP.

The guys you mentioned couldn't have put a run together like Andre has. They were all on a similar level. They would all have won some and lost some if they'd all have fought each other. None of them would have been able to have gone undefeated.

Again, beating them by decision shouldn't make any difference. He's not a renowned puncher. He wins fights on skills instead of power.

I think when he's retired, he'll definitely go down in history as an ATG.

[robertzimmerman]

I already acknowledged that Ward has a better resume than Ottke, but not leaps and bounds ahead of him. There is not one elite level slick boxer on Ward's record. Not one! If you say Dawson or Froch I'm going to lose my lunch.

There's not any slick level, elite guys, on most fighters resumes.

[jmrf4435]

If ward would have beat kovalev decisively I would put ward ahead. But he won a shameful robbery and then acted smug about it.

The way ward beat froch and kessler was utterly pathetic. The headbutts and holding, he headbutted kessler as a means to do damage, it was a sad sight for the sport. Most refs would have dq'd ward.

With that being said, wards best wins are controversial, I would have sven ahead slightly, nothing controversial about his resume.

[robertzimmerman]

wards is better but its still seriously overrated. lets dissect it a bit, wheres the great wins? he beat cobra by 1 round, a fighter who has his limitations. kessler was never tht great and not the same after joe dealt with him. dawson got sparked by the pimp in 1 round, barreras useless, abraham was a stiff useless plodder. he fought one top opponent in kovalev and most thought he lost. thats some stellar cv is it?

He beat the Cobra by 1 round? Get real. He did not beat him by a round. Come on. It was a relatively easy win, and he had a double fractured hand.

At the time he fought Dawson, Dawson was considered a top fighter. Unfortunately he was weight drained though. And he's never looked the same fighter afterwards. It was a shame. But he took the fight before Stevenson took him out.

You've been very harsh and you've over exaggerated things. And your post makes me laugh, especially considering how you think Joe Calzaghe is an ATG with a great resume.